[00:00:00] Announcer: The controller indicates that he is ready, and our 30 Multivision cameras will be bringing you all the speed, thrills, and excitement of this critical game. Ladies and gentlemen, our corporate anthem

[00:00:17] Mr. Bartholomew: Games created to demonstrate the futility of individual effort

[00:00:31] Matthew: Hello, and welcome once again to the Intermillennium Media Project and the IMMP Podcast. My name is Matthew Porter. 

[00:00:39] Ian: And I'm Ian Porter. 

[00:00:41] Matthew: I'm his dad, he's my son, and it's game day- 

[00:00:47] Ian: It's game day 

[00:00:48] Matthew: ... here at the IMMP. 

[00:00:51] Ian: Yeah. Uh, 

[00:00:52] Matthew: it's November. We've made it through Halloween. We've, uh, we've sadly said farewell to baseball season.

But hey, football and real sports like hockey are still going on. This episode- I'm trying to encourage those, comments to our, contact page. 

[00:01:11] Ian: Oh, yeah. I mean, please, engagement is appreciated. Didn't expect, didn't expect shots fired- ... first moments. Okay. 

[00:01:19] Matthew: So we are moving to kind of a sports theme here in November.

[00:01:24] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:01:26] Matthew: Uh, that's, that's a, a writ large. That's kind of a, a high-level theme here because we're, we're gonna be talking about some very different movies. 

[00:01:34] Ian: Yeah. I, I, I think this is a little bit... We have had very good theming. I'm gonna say this one's weird- ... because these do feel like odd examples of that topic.

[00:01:45] Matthew: Yeah. Sometimes our months don't have themes. Sometimes our months are, are themed in a way that's a little bit forced. So we're, we're dealing with sports of various kinds this month. We're also going back to the '70s for two movies this month. 

[00:01:58] Ian: We are. This is '70s sports films, and this one, oh, my goodness.

If you've been a longtime listener of the IMMP, welcome, because I have for you Kosho's cousin. 

[00:02:17] Matthew: Yes. Yes. 

[00:02:18] Ian: This is absolutely in the same vein of- ... weird, not real sports as Kosho, because we're watching Rollerball from 1975, and I'm pretty dang certain you've tried to show me this movie before, Dad. 

[00:02:35] Matthew: Have I? 

[00:02:37] Ian: Yes.

And you know what? You wanna know why? 'Cause I remember being sick from school. 

[00:02:45] Matthew: Oh, yeah. Oh, my. 

[00:02:45] Ian: And I remember, I remember falling asleep thanks to the cold medicine kicking in- ... partway through this film. And you wanna know what? 

[00:02:54] Matthew: Yeah? 

[00:02:54] Ian: It made more sense when I was 

[00:02:56] Matthew: there. 

[00:03:00] Ian: Uh, 

[00:03:01] Matthew: this is, is definitely one of those movies that I saw when I was way too young to see it.

But it's also one of those- 

[00:03:09] Ian: You think? 

[00:03:09] Matthew: It's one of those movies that I saw the television edit back when that was a thing, when movies would go from theaters to broadcast television. And the movies would be edited for, for time and also to some extent for content. Now, in the 1970s, editing something for television was mostly to take out any sexual references.

It was rarely to take out very much by way of violence. 

[00:03:34] Ian: There's a lot of violence here 

[00:03:36] Matthew: I probably saw this when I was 12 or 13. 

[00:03:39] Ian: Oh, goodness. Oh, that's gonna mess with you. 'Cause this is This is a sci-fi sports film that I'm pretty sure has had a long, long, yet very underrepresented, ripple effect through media afterwards.

[00:04:03] Matthew: It, oh, it absolutely has. We, we think of cyberpunk as an '80s phenomenon because that's really when it, it was named and when the cyberpunk school of writers really got going in, in science fiction literature. But so many of the tropes that we think of as connected with cyberpunk you can see in this movie from 1975.

[00:04:25] Ian: Oh, yeah. And it's- 

[00:04:26] Matthew: The world being ruled by corporations, for example. 

[00:04:29] Ian: The weird mix of recognizable technologies but made sometimes with textures and materials that don't make sense.

the strange nature of ubiquity of older technology. So instead of being able to truly predict new technology, because that's called invention, it's taking current generation technology and turning it to the maximum potential and spreading it around. That's part of that cyberpunk-y aesthetic.

You still got devices that look like modern day things for right now, but they are doing far beyond what they could in what they're implied to do. 

[00:05:16] Matthew: Right. It's set in, , 2018, but it's made in 1975, so the hallmarks of the future of 2018 is, "Look how cool these CRT televisions are- Yeah

and look how interesting these landline phones are." 

[00:05:32] Ian: And there's pieces that actually l- like they did predict something correct in odd places, and I, I'm gonna bring those up when I see them. But I, I don't want us calling out this, this attempt at futurism to be somehow misguided. No. Oh. They hit the mark on certain things, and they failed in others, and that's where l- where it's important to note.

[00:06:01] Matthew: Oh, a- absolutely. The, the fact that, um, the, the trappings were very much of the time the film was made is not a flaw of the film. It's, uh- Yeah ... the nature of filmmaking. And this was made by Norman Jewison, very, very accomplished director. He directed, uh, in things like In the Heat of the Night. He direc- directed the, the musical, the movie version of, uh, Fiddler on the Roof.

Later on in the '80s, he directed Moonstruck. 

[00:06:27] Ian: Okay. 

[00:06:27] Matthew: Really accomplished director, and this was an interesting, uh, this was an interesting, different kind of material for him, but he's seems to be somebody who keeps seeking out or, or kept seeking out interesting stuff and never wanted to make the same movie again.

[00:06:43] Ian: Yeah. He, he's definitely a, a- an artist who likes to push his own boundaries from what I'm seeing. 

And this definitely is an interesting film in terms of its cinematography, in terms of its look and style. I wanna , check what, , Douglas, , Slocombe, the cinematographer of this-

also did. Because there's a distinct way to depict action. Oh, that, there you have it. This is the guy who did Temple of, the, this is the cinematographer who did Temple of Doom and The Last Crusade. 

[00:07:14] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:07:14] Ian: Steven Spielberg's India- all, all of Steven Spielberg's Indiana Jones films. 

[00:07:17] Matthew: He is very accomplished with action and, and showing, showing speed, showing the specific character points in the midst of lots of action.

[00:07:28] Ian: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is important because the sport is really more akin to a fight scene- 

[00:07:34] Matthew: Yes ... 

[00:07:34] Ian: every time. 

[00:07:37] Matthew: So this movie, it's ma- again, made in 1975, set in 2018, and the poster describes it as, "In the not too distant future." 

[00:07:46] Ian: Next Sunday AD. 

[00:07:48] Matthew: Yes. I don't know if this is specifically where Mystery Science Theater got the line for their song, but it struck me.

It's like, "Oh, the not too distant future. Turn down your lights, we're applicable." 

[00:08:00] Ian: Yeah. This is absolutely... Uh, it's also in the same vein of something. I'm surpr- like, Mystery Science Theater 3000, I could see Rollerball posters being up in that office 

[00:08:12] Matthew: And it's one of those movies where we get little bits of its backstory as we go along because it's clearly a futuristic setting, and things are clearly different from they are today or, you know, to those of us watching in 1975.

But what we piece together over time i- and sometimes they're a little more ham-fisted with their exposition than others. 

[00:08:35] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:36] Matthew: This is a world in which nation state governments either don't exist or merely exist as vestigial figureheads. They really have no power. They're, they're... The governments are bankrupted is the way they were described at one point.

so the world is ruled by this set of corporations, and the corporations are integrated monopolies. There is the energy corporation and the- Yep ... food corporation, the housing corporation, and - others. these corporations set all the policies. They manage the entire, economy.

They make decisions with one another as a council and they're not just running the economy. They're running the society. 

[00:09:18] Ian: Yep. 

[00:09:19] Matthew: And there's definitely- And- ... a strata- stratification of haves and have-nots. The executive- Mm ... class in these corporations live very lavish lifestyles. 

[00:09:27] Ian: Yep. And the rest of the people are placated with grand spectacle such as rollerball, which is what exactly?

[00:09:44] Matthew: It is a, it is a, a violent sport- 

[00:09:49] Ian: Yeah ... 

[00:09:49] Matthew: played on a circular track by two teams of seven players each, most of whom are on roller skates, although each team also has three motorcyclists. 

[00:10:03] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:10:04] Matthew: And I actually found a site that purports to give the rules of rollerball. 

[00:10:10] Ian: Oh, goodness. I was just gonna have you read-

read the, uh, the positions of Whack-Bat bat. But if you've got- ... the actual specifics, yes please. 

[00:10:17] Matthew: We got- Three grabbers, three taggers, , five twig runners, and the player at whack bat. 

[00:10:22] Ian: Exactly. But no, yeah, th- it's, it's this weird mix of roller derby, uh, like bocce ball based rugby-

and BMX stunt show. 

[00:10:41] Matthew: The players are all equipped with helmets and pads and gloves. Uh- 

[00:10:47] Ian: Sometimes spiked. 

[00:10:48] Matthew: Yeah. Most of the players have spiked gauntlets. A couple of them have essentially augmented catcher's mitts or jai-alai mitts, because the ball in roller ball is a s- essentially a steel cannonball that is shot out of a pneumatic cannon.

As the- Yeah ... as the teams skate counterclockwise, this ball is fired out, uh, clockwise. And the goal is that a team wants to get possession of the ball. 

[00:11:19] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:21] Matthew: And there are two goals in the boards. The team has- Yeah ... to get possession of the ball, has to carry the ball for at least one revolution of the track, and then get it into their target goal within three revolutions of the track 

[00:11:42] Ian: Yeah 

[00:11:43] Matthew: And it's kind of an anything goes to do that and to stop the other team from doing that

[00:11:48] Ian: there's something weirdly roulette-like. 

[00:11:52] Matthew: It, yes, you're right. 

[00:11:55] Ian: Which adds to the whole, like, you've got all these corporate bigwigs in their box seats up above. I mean, the, the general people are in stands right up against the netting. But there's shots where there's these corporates watching over the thing, and it, it's like this little roulette wheel of humans with a ball landing in a slot.

And I'm like, "Oh, they're gambling with the lives," kinda thing. 

[00:12:20] Matthew: Yes. This is just another entertainment and just- Mm-hmm ... diversion for everybody involved. And- 

[00:12:28] Ian: This is the circuit. Yeah, this is the circuses, and, , the food company handles the bread. 

[00:12:32] Matthew: And it's a global sport. I gather it's the only sport. 

[00:12:37] Ian: Yeah.

[00:12:37] Matthew: And every city is run by one of the corporations, and every major city has a rollerball team, and they fly around the world, competing with the teams in other cities. And they're kind of the, the good rollerball teams, like the Houston team that we're following, and Houston is run by the Energy Corporation.

They are the, the show dogs, the prized possessions of the corporate executives. They're treated well for non-executives. 

[00:13:04] Ian: Oh, yeah. 

[00:13:05] Matthew: Uh, but they are- they are themselves kind of like luxury goods. Look what a, look at what a great rollerball team I've got. 

[00:13:13] Ian: There's something weirdly akin to a return of the, the old patron system of, Renaissance Italy and such, where it's like a higher class person would pay for having a some, an artist as a patron for the bragging rights of showing I can support this person to do their art.

[00:13:31] Matthew: Yes. Yes. And yet That's not the only kind of motivation. There's also- Mm-hmm ... a lot of social engineering around the sport and what the sport is supposed to convey to the populace who is obsessed with it. 

[00:13:45] Ian: Yep. 

[00:13:46] Matthew: Because what we follow in this movie is one particular player, the captain of the Houston rollerball team, played by James Caan.

The character's named Jonathan E. I don't believe anybody has full surnames- 

[00:14:00] Ian: No 

[00:14:00] Matthew: one- ... in this entire thing ... yeah, he's just is E. Yes. He's Jonathan E. He is a, he's been in the game for 10 years, and he is, like, the best rollerball player there ever was. And the fact that he's, he's kept playing for that long i- is in itself amazing.

[00:14:16] Ian: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:16] Matthew: And the corporation really wants him to retire. They want him out of the game. 

[00:14:22] Ian: Yep. "We need you to stop playing." 

[00:14:25] Matthew: And he doesn't wanna stop playing, and he doesn't wanna do what the corporation wants him to do. This is the, the one thing he can do and the one thing he does is play rollerball. But he does not have any love for the corporations or for this society, and we learn that he was in love and he had a wife, and his wife was essentially taken away from him because one of the corporate executives wanted her.

And- 

[00:14:49] Ian: Yeah ... 

[00:14:49] Matthew: women are definitely another luxury good in this- 

[00:14:53] Ian: Oh, 

[00:14:53] Matthew: yeah. There's- ... weird society we're seeing. 

[00:14:55] Ian: There's a lot of creepy misogynism. Yes. That's just a piece of it. But it is depicted as creepy misogynism. 

[00:15:02] Matthew: Absolutely. Which- Absolutely ... 

[00:15:03] Ian: like ... That's, that, that's at least something. There's ... I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna directly call Rollerball progressive.

But it kind of is. 

[00:15:16] Matthew: It is, it is showing that as one of the evils and perversions of this system, is the way it treats women it seems to me. 

[00:15:23] Ian: Yes. Very much so.

[00:15:25] Matthew: So Jonathan E does not wanna retire. He refuses. They even set up this TV special in which he, it's supposed to be a retrospective es- of his career, and on which he announces his retirement from the game. And they announce the special and they produce it and everything else, and he still refuses to announce his retirement.

And we learn that the reason why they need him out of the game is that he is an individual who is excelling, and people are chanting his name when he comes out onto the track, not just chanting the name of the, the team. 

[00:16:02] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:16:02] Matthew: And as, - , the main executive character that we follow, played by Jon Houseman, who is a high executive in the energy corporation.

. The game was designed to demonstrate the futility of individual effort. 

[00:16:17] none: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:18] Matthew: It was designed to be violent so that no one player stays in this game very long. Yeah. And it was designed to be team-based, and it was d- designed to be connected to the city, and the city is in turn connected to the corporation.

. He is the, the nail that is sticking up that needs to be hammered down. 

[00:16:36] Ian: And, and we watch kind of as the pressures on Jonathan telling him to leave, telling him "It's been decided for you that you're going to retire," is pushing Jonathan into more, rebellious act in some ways.

He starts going to the library to try to look up history books as a response to this, which is, it makes, it took me a little bit to understand because there's not a lot of transition in there. But it becomes very much like I'm getting shoved at so hard, I'm starting to wonder how these people are in control.

Mm-hmm. I wanna, I wanna learn what happened in the corporate wars. Oh, we're not allowed to know what happened in the corporate wars? That just makes me more interested to know. 

[00:17:24] Matthew: E- exactly. And there's, there is this mystery thread that is never really resolved. This is one thing that just is a dead end that never, never goes anywhere.

But there is at least, he's showing his individuality by wanting to learn these things, even if he never does. Mm-hmm. And he tries to go to the library and it turns out there's no books at the library. And he try, they're told there's like the two computer banks in the world. One of them is in Geneva, and that's where everything is.

And this is gonna seem absolutely wild to anybody listening in the year of our Lord, 2026. But it seems like what they've done is they have taken all of the actual books and they've fed them into these computer systems to summarize them- ... and then destroyed the books. So all we have are the corporate summaries of these books.

That's just, I mean- 

[00:18:18] Ian: I 

[00:18:18] Matthew: mean- Hard to imagine, isn't it? 

[00:18:20] Ian: Yeah. This is the stuff that they show an evil organization doing in, in, you know, a film from 1975 because it's obvious. That would be something an evil organization would do. 

[00:18:30] Matthew: Yes. There's no movie in which the good guys feed all the books into a computer and destroy the books.

[00:18:37] Ian: Yeah.

[00:18:43] Matthew: I'm having 

[00:18:43] Ian: trouble lifting this can. My hand is heavy. Sorry.

[00:18:52] Matthew: And he, so he, and even, he even goes to Geneva and he talks to the, the fluidic computer that is supposed to have all of the knowledge synthesized, and that computer just seems like it has escaped from Zardoz in that it cannot answer- Oh ... a straight question, and it's just very trippy. 

[00:19:09] Ian: Oh, uh, Zardoz at least could give a clear answer of what it thought.

It thought the gun was good and the penis was evil. Zero over here couldn't even get that far. It would just be like, "Gun? Gun? Where's gun? Gun? I don't know gun." Right. "Error." It's like Zero is even farther gone than Zardoz's tech over here. 

[00:19:29] Matthew: That's a fair point. 

[00:19:31] Ian: It's... I do appreciate, though, watching the, uh, the very prim and proper, um, but slightly off his own rocker, uh, manager of the Geneva computer.

[00:19:44] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:19:44] Ian: Start, start actually showing real-life IT professional attitudes. Which is when the giant server starts not responding to any keyboard input, any standard thing, his response is to kick the case just in case it works. And start getting mad at it. Yes. I'm like, "Wow, that's just natural human instinct.

Got it." 

[00:20:08] Matthew: He's, he's a little bit like Q from James Bond, but he's like, he's Major Boothroyd's more neurotic brother. 

[00:20:15] Ian: Oh, yeah. But yeah, this is the sort of thing, like through the film as we're watching all about the story of this sports film, we get to watch Jonathan become a bit of a, a one-man rebel alliance.

The best I can describe it. Definitely it's odd because there's such a, in so many cyberpunk stories, yeah, you've got your protagonist characters and such, but the idea of numerous underground networks pushing against the system, kind a thousand ants lifting one lion kind of, image.

But this is all about how the corporations are em- are pressing down on individualism. S- Jonathan is a one-man show through it all, and that's an interesting depiction compared to the, the, the quiet group rebellion attitude of more modern cyberpunk stories. 

[00:21:17] Matthew: Right. It's not about underground resistance, about this...

It, it's this one person who is both a target of the, the people in power and has the initiative and to some extent the resources to do something ab- to at least find out more and try to do something about it. And- They, they need him out of the sport because he's too much of an individual, presence.

They can't just have him have a terrible accident because that would just make him a martyr and it wouldn't solve their problem. 

[00:21:50] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:21:51] Matthew: So they need him to retire, to, to continue the validity of the sport, but get him out of the way and people will forget about him soon enough So h- because he refuses to retire, they start changing the rules of the game- 

[00:22:08] Ian: Yep

[00:22:08] Matthew: to make it more violent and more brutal and less survivable, figuring eventually this guy's gonna have to die in the, in the rollerball track. Other people probably will as well, but at least it'll deal with our Jonathan E problem. 

[00:22:23] Ian: And, and there's some elements where we also get to ... He has a friend on the inside because the f- the former, his former coach, Cletus, is now an energy exec.

So there's this implication that the normal pathway would be if you are honestly as good as Jonathan is, or a little less, to be honest, you would wind up in that corporate upper class as a way to put you in a rewarded place where you can be watched and your interests will be made to align.

But Jonathan's too much of a presence to do that, which is, means this isn't a st- Like, Jonathan's more than just a problem. He's a non-standard solution problem. 

[00:23:08] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:23:09] Ian: The normal way you deal with a good rollerball player is, you know, give him a desk job. We can't even risk Jonathan there, so this is why we're creating all these new things.

But that, the fact that these are all new inventions, the fact that this is not standard operating procedure makes those changes to the game riskier and more sudden, and it, it forces the corporations to play sloppy- Yes ... which is gonna be an important part through all of this. 

[00:23:47] Matthew: And they, they start with, there are no penalties, so anything goes.

And limited- Yeah ... substitutions in, like, the semifinal match. And it's interesting. We see them play, we see the Houston team playing against other teams from around the world. It starts out in the standard match against, uh, M- Madrid, and we see what a brutal sport this is. 

[00:24:09] none: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:09] Matthew: And then there's the semifinal match against, uh, Tokyo-

in which they've made these rule changes. And the setup of all that, there's a lot of racism and Orientalism in this. Yeah. The Houston players talking about how small the Japanese players are going to be, and this consultant coming in to tell the Houston team about the, the karate and hapkido techniques that the Japanese rollerball team is going to use.

[00:24:36] Ian: I kind of, I, I, I do kind of want just the clip of the, uh, the Tokyo rollerball team in a formation line all doing, uh, kung fu hand poses. 

[00:24:48] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:24:49] Ian: Like, uh, like, uh, it's just like, you know, the, this line of people ready to fist fight in these bright yellow uniforms, you know? Uh, me, me and the boys logging into a team match of a- Yes.

of a game at 8:00 AM. Like, I don't know what's going on over here, but 

[00:25:07] Matthew: just- Yeah, the, and between that and the, the, the skating in formation while doing punching drills, it's, there is something roller disco about some of- Oh ... the way that the Tokyo team presents itself. 

[00:25:20] Ian: Oh, absolutely. There's... The whole thing.

Roller, rollerball is absolutely , death disco in that sense. Yes. Like, that's a good way to describe its aesthetic. 

[00:25:32] Matthew: And so in this, in this even more brutal match against Tokyo, uh, where there are s- there are no penalties, anything goes, it's harder to bring players out if they've been injured. Um, there are a lot of, of injuries, including Jonathan's best friend on the team.

[00:25:52] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:25:52] Matthew: A guy with the nickname of Moon Pie, and he is as severely... He suffers a severe head injury. Yeah. And is essentially in a vegetative state So he's, he's the, the, the pathos. He's the, the sacrificial character who steels the resolve of our, of our hero to both learn more and to resist the corporations more

[00:26:19] Ian: And so it's all interspersed. We get matches, we get corporate discussion, and we get Jonathan's home life. 

[00:26:27] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:26:28] Ian: Which is this increasing amount of resistance, which is him watching an old video of his, uh, stolen away wife on his four TV setup all throughout his house. I, I will say it's like that's one of those things Rollerball gets right in terms of technology.

It's like the idea of multiple screen, uh, entertainment setups. 

[00:26:51] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:26:52] Ian: Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm sitting here staring at three monitors- ... and I'm like, "Oh, I felt called out here." But yeah, there's something about, like, I've got multiple videos of my wife in, on every TV in my house. It's very, uh... Hi. She's haunting the narrative.

Look at her go, haunt, haunt. 

[00:27:13] Matthew: and he's got, uh, again, the, he's a star rollerball player. He's taken care of v- very well. He's got a big ranch near Houston. Yeah. And a, a lavish home. And apparently he is assigned a woman, uh, and yet- Yeah ... no one's allowed to stay with him for any length of time.

Like every six months that woman he was sent gets a new assignment and someone else shows up. And, and the most recent person they have sent, Daphne, is somebody who's clearly her goal is to convince him to do what the corporation wants, and that doesn't work. 

[00:27:48] Ian: Yeah. It's like, you know, "Well, well surprise, the industry plant is telling me what the industry wants me to do.

Noted." Which, which is very much Jonathan's attitude there. He just calls her out to his, uh, to, to her face. And it's really awkward for everybody because it's like, "Dude, you don't do that. Everyone knows, but you don't say it." It's like, why not? 

[00:28:13] Matthew: Oh, and, and by the way, everybody's always taking drugs too. 

[00:28:16] Ian: Oh, 

[00:28:17] Matthew: constantly.

This is- I don't know if we mentioned that. Everybody's got a little ca- package of, of pills, a little holder for pills in their pocket. It's as casual as cigarettes in the 1950s. Yes. People are popping corporate approved drugs to, to keep them happy and compliant, I presume. 

[00:28:33] Ian: Yeah.

I don't remember how often we see Jonathan taking his, but I, I felt like he was le- taking it less over the course of the- 

[00:28:43] Matthew: I got that impression as well, and it may be that he's an athlete who's always in training. He's cutting da- he's, he's laying it off a little bit, but he, he definitely still took some.

It wasn't that he was a resister from this, but we see him doing that less and less. 

We also see some of these discussions among the council of the heads of these corporations agreeing about their decisions about something has to be done about Jonathan. And ultimately what they decide for the final rollerball game, for the championship of the season, which is Houston against , , New York, there are going to be no penalties, no substitutions, and no time limit 

[00:29:25] Ian: Which is the most blatant thing of the this is a death match 

[00:29:28] Matthew: Yes.

The game will continue until one team is incapable of continuing

[00:29:35] Ian: So yeah, that means that now it is, Houston versus New York, last man standing. Last man rolling, I guess, still. 

[00:29:45] Matthew: And each match, we get long segments of rollerball matches. The very beginning of the movie is this long match between Houston and Madrid. Around the, the one-third mark, we get this long match, between Houston and Tokyo, and then this very long final, against New York. And it is, it's well shot, as we were saying. The cinematographer does a great job with action. I do think these segments were longer than the movie required to get its point across. 

[00:30:15] Ian: This is a... Yeah, this is two-hour movie- But- over, over an hour of it's the gotta be game then. 

[00:30:20] Matthew: Probably close to it. And yet I, I think it's that in 1975, people buying a ticket to see this in a movie theater, you want that spectacle.

One of the things people are going for are the, the big scenes and the action, and seeing all this stuff on a big screen. I could see this- Mm-hmm ... having... I could see those scenes being more engaging on a big screen in a movie theater. 

[00:30:43] Ian: Oh, yeah Huh. 

[00:30:47] Matthew: But that last game, it is brutal, and it, there are lots of debilitating injuries and fatalities, and that's...

They don't care how many other players are either killed or knocked out of the game for life, as long as they get Jonathan out of there. That's, that's the one goal the corporations have. 

[00:31:06] Ian: And they spend a lot of time emphasizing the danger and the intensity for this. There's an entire scene where Jonathan is yelling at the corporate executive back and forth about the fact that he won't quit, while it's cutting back and forth to members of a party the executives have running around out in his garden, lighting his bushes on fire with a gun.

[00:31:31] Matthew: Yeah. 

[00:31:31] Ian: Which is just like, you know, you know, it's like, "People will die," and we watch violent destruction intercut in the background just to emphasize the point. 

[00:31:40] Matthew: And this, it's a bunch of drugged up executives and their, uh, consorts having partied until dawn, just kind of, they've got their hands on a blaster gun and they're shooting trees just for entertainment.

And it's, so you're right, it's that destruction for entertainment purposes. And I found myself thinking about that watching the movie, that, oh, they're showing the decadence of destruction as entertainment. And then I thought- To make this movie, they actually destroyed those five trees, didn't they? 

[00:32:14] Ian: That is the awkward 

[00:32:15] Matthew: part, indeed.

And I'm sitting here watching this movie. Those were not faked like the injuries to the rollerball players. 

[00:32:21] Ian: Yeah, no, they blew up a pile of trees to do that. 

[00:32:25] Matthew: Oh, well. 

[00:32:26] Ian: Oh, well. 

[00:32:26] Matthew: Guilty as charged. 

[00:32:28] Ian: Ah. The, the, the, uh, the, the art imitates life, the life imitates art. What's going on here? Um, uh, what are you trying to say, United Artists?

Uh, but yeah, they've really, they've really ramped this up, and yet it still fulfills that danger because they make this fight sequence of a, of a match, you feel those hits. It is, it is a w- it turns into a war movie- Yes ... stylistically during this time, and that's part of that difference of cinematography.

It's like, it's... The first game we see is a sports film. By this point, the f- the cinematography, the camera has started to tell you it's a war film, not a sports film. 

[00:33:23] Matthew: And that's something I think we realize about Jonathan E as we go along, and it's probably true for most of the players, is that he is suffering from severe PTSD from having been in this game for 10 years.

And I think that one of the reasons why he can't imagine not playing this game is that the one place and time when he is not suffering the most from that PTSD is when he is in the game because he has to be in the moment, even though he's acquiring more of that kind of trauma, and it's one of the- Yeah

one response you can see to PTSD is seeking- Mm-hmm ... the same kind of input. 

[00:34:02] Ian: And, and in ter- in terms of being able to portray this, this is James Caan just a year after "The Godfather Part II." 

[00:34:09] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:34:10] Ian: So, you know, but so he's been... He's, you know, been in "The Godfather." He's got that, that acting chops to really give the emotion even in the small moments.

[00:34:20] Matthew: And he's... James Caan is this kind of guy who has this, this presence which is he can still be relatable and seem like an everyman kind of a guy even while he is playing someone who is supposed to be this global celebrity. 

[00:34:34] Ian: Right.

[00:34:36] Matthew: And the oth- the other m- lead actor in this w- is John Houseman, who is playing the, like, chairman of the energy corporation. 

[00:34:46] Ian: Oh, yeah. 

[00:34:46] Matthew: And he, John Houseman is, an interesting actor. He is so well known for exactly this kind of role because these were his most prominent roles, were, were this role and the role of the, uh, the domineering contracts professor in law school in The Paper Chase.

And he also played essentially the same character in a series of commercials for some, like, financial services company in the late '70s and early '80s. Uh, so he was always this very imposing company man part of, uh, representing an institution of some kind, be it the energy corporation or, or a law school.

And yet we have seen him previously in the Intermillennium Media project. 

[00:35:31] Ian: I, yeah, I had to look that 

[00:35:33] Matthew: up. Do you re- He was the old storytelling guy on the beach in The Fog. 

[00:35:39] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:35:42] Matthew: Not the same kind of role that Houseman is most known for. 

[00:35:45] Ian: No. Very different. 

[00:35:47] Matthew: But he is such a capable actor and has so much range, and I mean, he worked with, with, uh, uh, Orson Welles in the early days- Yeah

up through Citizen Kane. He was the founding director of the, uh, uh, drama school at Juilliard. 

[00:36:02] Ian: Yeah. He's definitely g- he's in that same Orson Welles-ian s- a- approach and style to acting, if that makes any sense. That, that, you know, grab from the deep of yourself and put it into that. 

[00:36:18] Matthew: So even though the character was by its nature very reserved, very closed off, he did a pretty good job of conveying through these small ways the increasing distress and desperation of this- Yes

character who is accustomed to being in complete control and to being deferred to by everybody around him, and here's a situation he can't control And of course, it's a sports movie. It's not supposed to be a h- it's, it's a depressing movie, but it is not a bleak movie in that it, none of, none of the corporation's efforts work.

[00:36:56] Ian: Yep. 

[00:36:56] Matthew: And- Everybody else on the Houston team is gone by the end of that final match. There's a motorcyclist and a w- and a skater are the only people left of the, the New York team, and Jonathan E managed to make a goal. The only goal in the match. 

[00:37:13] Ian: Yeah. Well, he kn- he get, he manages to knock both of the other two down- Yes

but not, not remove them. He incapacitates but does not kill them. 

[00:37:23] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:37:24] Ian: And instead, very purposely, in the moment where he could kill them, instead picks up the ball, walks over, and finishes the game. 

[00:37:32] Matthew: Right. 

[00:37:34] Ian: Because we'd already gotten a point where it was yelled that it was never, that the game was never the important part.

It was never supposed to be a game. 

[00:37:41] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:37:42] Ian: It's like the, the, the, he, Jonathan had pushed so far that he got the corporations to admit the truth about the game never being important. 

[00:37:53] Matthew: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:54] Ian: And for him, who put his entire life into the game, that meant that the game was up for grabs as something to take back.

But yeah, and, and, and it ends on that. Well, actually, no, it ends on him having done that and the, s- the crowd chanting, and then... The, the weirdest freeze frame ending of films, I gotta say. 

[00:38:16] Matthew: Yeah. He's skating away from the goal as the crowd chants his name, and they freeze-frame on him skating, and then they just start to crop in, punch in on his face, far beyond what makes any sense- Zoom

with this film grain. 

[00:38:28] Ian: Yeah. How do you do the ending of Rollerball? Zoom, enhance. Zoom, enhance. And, and dun, dun, dun, dah. It's got the dramatic music going and everything. 

[00:38:40] Matthew: Yeah. 

[00:38:40] Ian: It is, it is... Honestly, the, the ending broke me out of the spell that the rest of the movie had. 

[00:38:45] Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. But it 

[00:38:47] Ian: was fun. 

[00:38:48] Matthew: Although you mention the music.

This... I don't remember much about the, the score throughout, but it begins with Bach's, uh, Toccata and Fugue in D minor. Mm-hmm. And it ends with that as well. It's bookended by this incredibly heavy and powerful piece of music. And it's, it's a, it's an organ piece. It's great as, to hear as they're, they're setting up the, the Rollerball arena for the first match that we see, uh, as the opening credits start.

I, I love the use of that music. 

[00:39:23] Ian: Uh, it's a classical piece in a world in which all of the books and history have been reserved and kept away. Ah, yes. And yet our main character winds up with a piece of history as a h- as a theme for himself. 

[00:39:36] Matthew: Mm-hmm.

Well, I think we might be headed towards our final questions 

[00:39:40] Ian: I think so

[00:39:42] Matthew: So stay tuned for our discussion of whether we recommend this movie and what we might want done with this idea or this, this, uh, story in the future. But first, if you are enjoying the IMMP podcast, first of all, thank you so much for listening. You're the reason we do this. And if you'd like more of the IMMP, please go to immproject.com.

That's where you will find all of our back episodes, more than 200 of them by now, , plus some bonuses. And also where you will find at immproject.com ways to contact us at our contact page. We would love to hear from you, be it by email or on our Discord or on, uh, Blue Sky or Mastodon, or by, uh, actual honest-to-goodness US mail at our PO box.

It's the mail. I'll get used to it. And also at immproject.com, you'll find other ways to support the podcast, such as our Patreon. starting at $3 a month, you'll get even more bonus audio content. And if you like T-shirts and coffee mugs and notebooks and other fun things, you can go to our shop and get merchandise, not just about the podcast, but about some of the fun things we have talked about over the, uh, the years, such as "Space 1999" or that wonderful sport that you mentioned early in this episode, Ian, Kosho.

[00:41:03] Ian: Kosho. 

[00:41:04] Matthew: We have some shirts from the, the 1967 Village Intramural Tournament- 

[00:41:10] Ian: Yes ... 

[00:41:11] Matthew: for fans of "The Prisoner." 

[00:41:14] Ian: Uh, do you like weird, uh, weird, barely explained, uh, but weirdly engaging to watch fake sports? 

Kosho. 

[00:41:27] Matthew: And Ian, where can people find you? 

[00:41:30] Ian: I can be found online most places as ItemCrafting, be that ItemCrafting, com or ItemCraftingLive on Twitch.

Come join me as I stream games, uh, paint minis, and talk about whatever. 

[00:41:47] Matthew: I, I love the variety of things on your, streams. 

[00:41:51] Ian: Why, thank you. 

[00:41:52] Matthew: I also like seeing- It's always- ... your, trophy wall expand. 

[00:41:55] Ian: Ah, yeah. As I build more props from things that I've played, and, uh, the, the craft cats, my, viewers and followers, join in and, help make suggestions.

And Dad, where can people find you? 

[00:42:08] Matthew: Well, best thing to do for me is to go to ByMatthewPorter.com. That's where you will find my blog, and you will find links to other things that I'm doing, like my YouTube page where I review, movies and movie theater experiences, and sometimes talk about writing and about mysteries.

And you'll also find a link to information about my book, Questions For The Dead, a Martin Rodak psychic mystery, published by Ephemeral Industries. You can get that in e-book or in paperback. You can get a paperback from your, uh, your local bookstore. Ask them to order it if they don't have it on the shelves.

You can also get e-books or paperbacks from your favorite online retailer. Or you'll find links directly to the Ephemeral Industries store, and if you order a paperback directly from Ephemeral Industries before the end of November, you can get a signed copy. 

[00:43:01] Ian: Yeah.

It's a fun story, an interesting mystery, and I love how you, I love how you were able to just give life to the, the places, not just the people. It's a very, it's a very fun story to see set in Colorado. 

[00:43:17] Matthew: It was fun to write, and, um, I'm working away on, uh, the second Martin Rodak mystery as we speak. 

[00:43:23] Ian: Ooh, so there's more coming.

Very nice. 

[00:43:28] Matthew: So 

[00:43:30] Ian: So ... 

[00:43:30] Matthew: that brings us to our final questions. And because this is a movie, that means our first question is screen or no screen? Do you recommend this movie?

Eh? That sounds like what the inside of my head feels like- I don't know what- ... uh, when I'm trying to answer that. 

[00:43:51] Ian: I feel like, I feel like it's a litmus test. There are people for whom I will meet them, I'll get to talk with them, and somewhere in the back of my brain I'll be like, "This person would like Rollerball."

And then there's people for whom I should not do that to them. I will not subject them to Rollerball. 

[00:44:12] Matthew: And then there's, "This person would like Rollerball. Should I call someone?" 

[00:44:16] Ian: Yeah, exactly. It's like, it, it's a, oh, you know, it, it's like a pH scale- ... but for a film. You know? I don't know what to say because if it

It's also kind of like if you like r- If you would like Rollerball, I get the weird feeling you'll have found Rollerball eventually. 

[00:44:37] Matthew: Yeah. I- 

[00:44:38] Ian: It's like I don't, I don't need to suggest it to you. It will grab its own people. 

[00:44:43] Matthew: And it was a very divisive movie, even at the time. It got some critics, uh, that, who just thought it was pretentious and full of itself and way too heavy-handed, not interesting enough, and others who thought this was really good action filmmaking, but also had a point about society.

So ... And yet it, it can be so slow. It can be- It would've been better off as a 90-minute movie than as a two-hour-plus movie. R- 

[00:45:12] Ian: Rollerball would be better off as a, a miniseries than a movie. 

[00:45:19] Matthew: That would work. 

[00:45:20] Ian: And that's interesting, 'cause we've talked before- ... just recently, uh, actually, about miniseries as, like, being treated as movies 'cause they stitch together.

And meanwhile I'm like, "No, no, no. Do the opposite here. Chop this up- ... and give it to me in four episodes over the course of a month." And I will be like, "You know what? It's better." 

[00:45:41] Matthew: I have recently been re-watching Ted Lasso from the beginning. And now I'm trying to imagine Ted Lasso as a Rollerball coach.

I'm not sure that works. 

[00:45:54] Ian: You see, Ted, Ted would not. Coach Beard would absolutely teach a Rollerball team, though. That's the problem. 

[00:46:01] Matthew: Yeah. I could see Beard making that pivot. 

[00:46:04] Ian: Yeah, that's the thing. Uh, I get the feeling that Rollerball is your favorite ar- one of your favorite artist's referenced films, though.

[00:46:13] Matthew: Ah, yeah? 

[00:46:14] Ian: Because looking into this game, there are so many attempts to build a Rollerball video game. 

this keeps on drawing in indie game developers who are desperate to make a playable Rollerball in one form or another. 

[00:46:35] Matthew: It has that drive. All the pieces are there. It should work. 

[00:46:39] Ian: It should work. and it's also something where its style keeps showing up places.

There's a chess variant called Rollerball- ... inspired by the film. Uh- 

[00:46:53] Matthew: I, I- 

[00:46:54] Ian: There's- ... 

[00:46:54] Matthew: could see it working- There's also- ... as a miniatures game. 

[00:46:57] Ian: I could see, yeah With the right 

[00:46:58] Matthew: movement and combat rules. Yeah. 

[00:47:00] Ian: Yeah, it's like this, this feels like, you know, you could make a, a Warhammer modification for it. Uh, there's, there are plen- there are music videos inspired by it.

Uh, the movie Aelita: Battle Angel pretty much just ends with- ... "And then there was Rollerball." 

[00:47:19] Matthew: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. 

[00:47:21] Ian: It's like this keeps on showing up in other places as a, a reference. It... This movie got a remake. 

[00:47:31] Matthew: I, to, bef- before we get into that, I'd, I, um, I'll give my answer to the screen or no screen, and that is- 

[00:47:37] Ian: Okay, yeah.

[00:47:39] Matthew: Um, I would say no screen. It's slow. Yeah. It is heavy-handed. It's... If, if you're the kind of person who really wants to see this, as you said, you, you'll know about it and you'll veto my lack of recommendation, but I'm gonna say no screen. 

[00:47:55] Ian: Yeah. Honestly, yeah. Let's go, uh, go, stepping back there, I'm with you, and, and that's the thing.

Like, we are telling you no screen. For some of you, you will push back against that. And that means you're acting like Jonathan and that Rollerball is your thing. Go for it. 

[00:48:18] Matthew: Absolutely. 

[00:48:18] Ian: Because us telling you to not means you will.

In terms of us saying whether or not you should watch this, it is important to note this is one of probably the easiest to access films I feel we've talked about in a long while, 'cause this is available just for free via YouTube. 

[00:48:36] Matthew: Yes. 

[00:48:37] Ian: Yes. U- United Artists just put up the whole movie right there. You can just go click a button and watch it right there on YouTube.

You know, subscribe to our channel first and then go watch it. It's right there if you want, but, 

eh.

[00:48:55] Matthew: So again, then our final, our, our next question is revive, reboot, or rest in peace? Do we want- 

[00:49:03] Ian: Yeah ... 

[00:49:03] Matthew: something else in this sa- same continuity, a prequel or a sequel? Do we want a new version of this, a remake or reboot, or just leave it as is? 

[00:49:12] Ian: I mean, it got a remake, although the remake apparently doesn't follow the original.

[00:49:21] Matthew: No? 

[00:49:22] Ian: No. It's got, like, people trying to leave rollerball for the NHL. And it's got, like- 

[00:49:32] Matthew: I, I didn't think there were 

[00:49:33] Ian: any other sports ... different match. Yeah. It's got different matches in it, and characters have last names, and it re- has cameos by Slipknot and the artist Pink. 

[00:49:46] Matthew: That sounds like they just wanna take the sport of rollerball and put it into something like our world.

[00:49:52] Ian: Yeah. Yes It's apparently one of the most expensive box office flops of all time. 

[00:49:56] Matthew: And the whole point of the original movie was that this game, as it, to the extent it is a game, is an artifact of this very unusual world in which it exists. Just putting it as- Yeah ... another sport alongside hockey and football and major league soccer is kinda weird.

[00:50:19] Ian: The remake doesn't seem to be a remake. It seems to be a reboot in the, um, don't create the torment nexus- ... kind of scenario, where it seems to be a story of people not getting the point of the original rollerball and making rollerball. Oh, 

[00:50:37] Matthew: goodness. Yeah. 

[00:50:39] Ian: Which, which kind of is also the movie. Uh- ... so I feel like that is proof that we have attempted and failed because it's not supposed to be.

I, I, I'm ta- This is one of those instances where I'm taking the existence of a failed remake as a sign for a rest in peace. 

[00:50:58] Matthew: I could see it being better in a way that you just described a little bit ago, taking it and making it into a, a TV series, kind of like they did with Westworld, took that movie's concept, explored it in greater-

depth in a TV series. So if anything else was gonna be done with rollerball, that would make the most sense, as you were saying, but I don't know that that's necessary. I'd say rest in peace. 

[00:51:24] Ian: Yeah. It's a rest in peace, but it's definitely a... Well, I said it before, this is your favorite artist's referenced media.

This is something where I feel like there is pieces to be mined from it. I can't say that it hasn't inspired pieces of what I've made. Before us talking about this, when you first showed it to me, the bits I remembered stuck in my brain, and now that I'm here, I'm like, I have a weird feeling that I would, you know, take some players at one of my tabletop games and subject them to a-

a combat round that happens to be a thinly disguised rollerball and see what happens. That's the sort of thing where it's like, you know, this is- This is not a, uh, let's re- let it rest in peace and never look again. 

[00:52:10] Matthew: No. 

[00:52:10] Ian: But it is a rest, it's a rest in peace 'cause we don't need more Rollerball specific.

[00:52:15] Matthew: It's gonna have its, its influence, and it has had its influence, and now we're getting things that are a couple of generations beyond that. So yeah, it's part of the media landscape, but, you know, we don't need anybody putting resources into remaking this. 

[00:52:29] Ian: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:52:33] Matthew: So it, uh, it was an odd kind of start to our, our sort of sports-themed month.

[00:52:37] Ian: Yeah. That's, that's a weird one. I guess next time we approach a sport more rationally? 

[00:52:49] Matthew: A little more down to earth, that's right. 

[00:52:52] Ian: Uh, until, until the sequels add robots.

That was one of the interesting things: Rollerball had no robots. 

[00:53:01] Matthew: No robots. 

[00:53:01] Ian: It had a giant computer, but it was a sci-fi future without robots. 

[00:53:04] Matthew: Ah. 

[00:53:06] Ian: I applaud the '70s for doing so. 

[00:53:08] Matthew: Interesting. 

[00:53:10] Ian: Yeah. 

[00:53:10] Matthew: I guess the corporations might be thinking, "What do we need robots for? We've got all these compliant people to do anything we need done."

[00:53:18] Ian: Yeah. Hmm. But anyway, yeah. 

[00:53:23] Matthew: Yes. So , we look forward to continuing. I'll have another, a movie, , related to sports in a couple of weeks. So we invite you to return for another tale of media from the 20th century. 

[00:53:36] Ian: In the meantime, go find something new to watch