[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So today I sit down with Eric Chow. Eric is the senior director of ministry and outreach for the Archdiocese of Vancouver, Canada. He is also the director and one of the founders of the Proclaim movement. We talk about what hospitality looks like in a parish if you're actually going to help make people feel comfortable and connect with them. We talk about the role of empathy, how we can recognize the mission field, the proximate periphery right in front of our noses, who the Lord has called us, to serve. We talk about the priority of mission and outreach to those who are the furthest away, and how we can partner with the Holy Spirit. Eric is a seasoned missionary. He offers real, practical ideas and suggestions. You're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen. 

Eric Chow, welcome to the EquipCast. 

[00:01:32] Eric Chow: Thanks so much for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation. 

[00:01:35] Jim Jansen: Oh, I am too. I don't know if there's a rule that you're not allowed to give a shout-out in the first 30 seconds, but I think I'm gonna break that rule. Just thank you to Michael Hall, a mutual friend of ours, who made the introduction, like a year ago or whatever. We've had a couple of conversations. I'm super excited to have you on, Eric. So you are the senior director of ministry and outreach for the Archdiocese of Vancouver, which for you geographically challenged, that's in Canada. It's on the west side of Canada. And director for proclaim which I'm also super excited to talk about. Your work founding an ecclesial movement. Eric, before we jump in to my curiosity give people just a little bit of background. Who are you? How'd you meet the lord? How'd you first feel the call to mission? 

[00:02:23] Eric Chow: Yeah, thanks, Jim. First I'll Start with current and then I'll work backwards. I've been married for 20 years. I've got five kids, teenagers right down to eight years old, which keeps us quite busy, and we're that family that spends a lot of time in the church.

I work for the archdiocese. My wife works for the parish. But for the first 20 years of my life, I was a cultural Catholic, and it was a box in my life along with a whole bunch of other boxes. And I didn't really spend too much time focused on God. It was just a part of my life. But I had a moment of encounter with Jesus by chasing a girl, oddly enough, into a church that eventually led me--

[00:03:01] Jim Jansen: Wait. Was she running into the church for refuge, or were you like just following an attractive person into Church?

[00:03:05] Eric Chow: Oh sure, sure, No, the longer story would be that I had ended in a relationship. It was not very good. I had sort of alienated a number of my friends, and eventually I made a decision to attend World Youth Day in Toronto in 2002. And it was at the invitation of a youth minister that asked at the right time.

And we ended up at this sort of gathering to prepare for World Youth Day, and I saw a cute girl across the hall, and I thought, "I'm gonna meet her," 'cause she was attractive, and I was attracted to her. And because as a cultural Catholic, I didn't really understand what it meant to be in relationship with Jesus, when I met her, I didn't really understand why was she so passionate about her faith. And so I tried to put on masks and tried to impress her, and one of the ways I thought I would impress her would be to go into the church with her, and then to show her that I knew how to pray, which I kind of did as a cultural Catholic, but I was really just doing it for all the wrong reasons. And so, on the kneeler-- 

[00:04:04] Jim Jansen: "I said three hail Marys and I got all the words right." 

[00:04:07] Eric Chow: Yeah, exactly. So, I'm on the, kneeler. I'm looking up. I'm looking at this girl, and I'm thinking what in the world am I doing? This is ridiculous." And so I turned to the crucifix at the front of the church and made an authentic cry to God and He met me there. It was an experience, an encounter of God that I'll never forget and continues to animate me and, continues to show up in my life and it changed the trajectory of my life.

[00:04:33] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. I can relate at a whole lot of levels. World Youth Day in Denver was huge for me. Totally a cultural Catholic, although I wasn't even good at checking the boxes. At least not without help. So that's awesome. And Eric you also served as a missionary, right, with Catholic Christian Outreach.

[00:04:50] Eric Chow: I did. When I was in university, I was studying to be an engineer, and towards the end of that degree, I had a certain calling and an invitation to consider becoming a missionary with Catholic Christian Outreach, which is a university student movement in Canada. It has a lot of parallels to FOCUS in terms of its outreach on campus, et cetera. And so I signed up thinking I would do that for three years and then return to my engineering career, and three years turned to 15 years and I've spent my entire adult life in ministry. 

[00:05:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's a bunch of, like, seeds you've just kinda laid in this. But first, I just want you to give us, like, a little bit of not like all of canadian history here, but most of our listeners are in the US, although we've got ireland and folks all over the place who listen. What do those who are not from Vancouver need to know about your mission field just to kinda get you and get our conversation? 

[00:05:46] Eric Chow: Just to start with population and breakdown, we're about three and a half million here in Vancouver. We're an international worldwide city known for its stunning beauty. Mountains and ocean, the nature, creation is right in front of you. And you could say that for a lot of people that are here, creation becomes the religion and, the encounter with God, the encounter with creation and not necessarily the creator behind all of what we get to encounter. At the same time of the three and a half million, we have, every culture represented: Chinese, Indian, Persian, Middle East.

There's just a very multicultural environment that we live in here.

[00:06:25] Jim Jansen: Is that 'cause of the shipping? I know, you're a large seaport. Um, yeah, why such extraordinary diversity?

[00:06:34] Eric Chow: Yeah, traditionally, I think it's, it is a port and an entryway to, the rest of Asia and the Pacific. And so yeah, that's just been a welcoming of various communities and that has grown over time. So we do see a lot of multiculturalism in our Catholic parishes and communities. I'd say that if you were Caucasian walking into a parish in Vancouver, you would be a minority. 

[00:06:56] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, s-similar experience, visiting my son is now working as a missionary at San Jose State in California, And you could see not just the deep kind of multicultural and the diversity there, I don't know if this is universal, but at the parish that we visited, which I think was pretty exceptional you could see the ease with which the ethnic groups interacted with each other which was very, cool and very encouraging. For places where ethnic diversity is newer, it's like, Okay, yeah, but we're Catholic. We can do this. This is who We are." So that was really encouraging. 

[00:07:35] Eric Chow: I'll also offer some other thoughts to Vancouver around the breakdown of faith. So, 15% of our population would be identified as Catholic, which means there's about 400,000 Catholics in Vancouver. We're not a majority at all.

And I'd say that the Christian value system is not something that is part of the underlying, imaginative vision here in Vancouver. There's certainly a lot of different faiths that are represented, but also a lot of secular thoughts and streams of ideologies that are part of our city.

[00:08:09] Jim Jansen: I've heard, people say Canada's a good 15, 20 years ahead of many parts of the US in terms of secularization. Which I mean, we can learn a ton from you all, 'cause you're like, Yeah, we've been living " in this water for a while." 

[00:08:24] Eric Chow: Yeah. I had a religious sister that I know. She was just walking downtown, and someone approached her and asked the question, What are you?" And he wasn't asking "What order are you? Are you Franciscan, Dominican, et cetera?" He literally did not know why this woman was wearing what she was wearing. 

[00:08:41] Jim Jansen: Right. It's not Halloween. 

[00:08:42] Eric Chow: Exactly. So , no context to understanding, the, Catholic culture and all, religious, et cetera. Like a priest friend of mine, went to go renew his driver's license, and the person across the desk even just said, "Hey I like your shirt. Where did you get it?" And didn't understand the context and the meaning of the collar. 

[00:09:00] Jim Jansen: The shirt itself is probably like $25, but it costs a whole lot to put it on. 

[00:09:05] Eric Chow: Yeah. That's right. 

[00:09:07] Jim Jansen: Oh my gosh, that's great. I remember similarly, I grew up in Omaha. Omaha is a very high 35% to 80% Catholic. Depending in some neighborhoods, parts of the city are Catholic. Generally, in like the 30-ish, 35%. But moving just an hour down the way in Lincoln, Nebraska, which is famous for its faithfulness, catholics are a very small cultural minority there. And so I remember we'd go out to eat with a priest in Omaha. It's like, "Hey, Father, have one on the house." And I just remember the servers when we were in Lincoln, they knew something was different. This person had a collar on. They probably knew it was, okay, religious, 'cause it is a very Protestant town. But they didn't know " how to respond 'cause they had never experienced it.

[00:09:54] Eric Chow: Yeah. I will add though that I think Vancouver is also experiencing a resurgence of spiritual curiosity, and that might be just as a result of... I mean, first I think the result of the Holy Spirit just moving. You see this in pockets around the world where there is just, increasing numbers of

[00:10:11] Jim Jansen: France, like who, who 

[00:10:13] Eric Chow: Yeah. 

[00:10:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah for those who don't know, like France's secularism, they were like, oh, they were another 20 years ahead of canada. And they have been for the last few years welcoming extraordinary numbers into the church. Really beautiful.

[00:10:27] Eric Chow: Yep, yeah, and we've seen the same increase here in Vancouver. The number of people being welcomed into the church at easter has dramatically increased in the last five years. 

[00:10:36] Jim Jansen: How much of that would you credit to like evangelistic efforts or just secularism creating this thirsty desert where people are like, "Well, maybe there's water over there," and they just come to the church for refuge? 

[00:10:48] Eric Chow: Statistically, I wouldn't be able to offer any analysis to that, but anecdotally, we hear of parishes that are taking more efforts to reach out, and as a result of that intentional outreach, they are welcoming more individuals into the church. And I'm also hearing parishes and parish secretaries saying, "We're getting more calls of people saying, I wanna know how to become Catholic.'" And, they're showing up to the parish front doors and just saying "Tell me more about what all this is about." And so you hear both stories of, people who are just being prompted in some way to discover and to learn about faith and other stories of parishes and communities and individuals who are taking the initiative to reach out.

[00:11:29] Jim Jansen: And I would say those things are connected if you haven't done any interior work, I'm meaning like in the thoughts and dispositions as an individual, as a community, to begin to reach out, you're unlikely to be able to receive people well anyway. So there's something about the muscle to go get them, that effort is so worth it because even those that the lord just sends your way, now you can at least receive them. 

[00:11:55] Eric Chow: That's a really good point. I know that hospitality has been something that we have been working to help parishes get better at. I was at a parish the other day, and, they had welcomed this individual into their community. And if you were to just look at him and sort of do the stereotypical profiling, right?

Tattoos from the wrist right through to the neck onto the face , five, 10 years ago, when hospitality certainly wasn't something, that was emphasized, they may have walked into the door and then would've been turned away, immediately through the initial experience of judging eyes or an unwelcome glance or whatever it might be.

But I think because hospitality has been an emphasis in Vancouver and in many parishes that are working towards renewal, I think these individuals who would've walked away because they didn't feel welcome, I think they're sticking around and they're being able to ask their questions.

[00:12:45] Jim Jansen: I wanna dig into that, though, just for a moment, eric. Everybody thinks they're good at hospitality. I 've never met a parish that's like," actually, we stink at hospitality. Many parishes are actually not good at hospitality. They think they are I think in part, I don't think there's, a gap in honesty, but it's just " well, I feel welcome." It's like, well, of course you feel welcome. You're the pastor, you are a parish insider. Everybody knows you. That is not everybody's experience walking in. What does it actually mean for a parish community to be good at hospitality? 

[00:13:18] Eric Chow: One way we can think about it would be to ask yourself, what would you do to prepare your own home if you were welcoming guests? And part of what you would do would be to try to help them understand what it means to behave as soon as you walk into that front door, and so, thinking about the individual who has never set foot on your parish grounds and walking through with empathy and in some practical steps. What are the things that they would just get hung up on?

Like, is it okay for me to park here? If I park here, where do I go? Is someone gonna look at me if I show up a little bit late? Or if I'm a new face, like, how am I gonna be welcomed? Am I supposed to sit, stand, kneel? Is someone gonna out me for being the new guy at the parish? So I think all of those things would have to be thought through really well.

And then from there, I would say the work of getting to know an individual personally is so important. To know their name is one thing, like name tag Sundays or whatever you have is great because you start to open up that personal connection because you know their names.

But then to know their stories and to carry their stories, and then to know that, whatever story they bring, to your attention, offers to you some insight into who they are, but also to the questions that they might be having in their lives. And that regardless of where they're at in those questions they're welcome in this community just as they are.

I think that kind of disposition extends and opens up hospitality. And then, the practical stuff can come later. "Hey, we're gonna get you a cup of coffee." But, your're not gonna invite someone to a cup of coffee knowing that they're gonna walk into a room where they're not gonna get welcomes or that they're not going to be known, or they don't even like coffee in the first place, right?

So there's so many different ways in which we have to first know the people that we're welcoming, understand the different hangups that they might have with walking into the church and then meet them where they're at, and then guide them accordingly.

[00:15:03] Jim Jansen: I can totally, see that because well-meaning, and you're like, "Oh, hey, welcome." Afterwards we're gonna do the litany and then the rosary, and they're like "well, if you just asked me I would've said, Hey, I'm actually not Catholic, but my cousin is, and I've been curious to learn,'" and then you're like, oh, all that insider language, super, nichey, devotional Catholic spirituality. I probably wouldn't have mentioned that 'cause you don't know what that means yet. 

[00:15:28] Eric Chow: I'm an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion at my parish, and I love the ministry, certainly because you get to be a part of, bringing Jesus to others. But also because you get to see people who have never set foot in a church come up, and they're a little confused.

You can see it in their eyes. They're wondering, they're looking around, they're trying to understand what to do. There's been a number of times for me where I've seen that happen, and I've been able to communicate to them in a very short period of time I'll give you a blessing.

Holy Communion's reserved for Catholics, but come and see me after." And so at the end of the mass, I'll try and kind of flag them down and say, "Hey, I'm so glad you're here. That must have been really awkward for you, going up in a line and wondering what the heck am I supposed to do.

But, let's just... let's talk about why you're here and how we can help you in the things that, you're searching for and the questions that you have." And we've been able to receive a number of people in that way, and I think, there are so many opportunities like that when it comes to hospitality, where there are small things that we can do that have huge impact.

And it's not just about putting people at the front doors and saying, "Welcome," and, "Here's your name tag," or "Let me get you to a seat." There's so much more.

[00:16:33] Jim Jansen: There's this kind of empathetic forethought that is the difference between like, this is where someone will want and need this thing" rather than, "Well, it's available. Go get them." Oh, that's so good. Eric, I want to give you the chance to talk a little bit. In addition to your very full-time job at the diocese, You've got two titles. I love it, right? Just show off. Director of proclaim. Right? Which is a, a beautiful ecclesial movement. What is Proclaim, and didn't you have enough work to do at the archdiocese? 

[00:17:07] Eric Chow: Yeah. Well, we'll start right from the beginning. In 2018 Pope Francis had made an invitation to the entire church to observe, an extraordinary month of mission, October 2019. And so in the archdiocese, there was some talk and planning about how we would do that. I wasn't working for the archdiocese at the time.

I was still with Catholic Christian Outreach, but I was invited to be part of this discernment. What are we to do with this invitation to observe an extraordinary month of mission? And like most good diocese and, most of the responses to these things, we thought we would just run an event, like a really big event that, would celebrate mission, et cetera.

But the people in the room had a sense that there was more to this call than just running an event. First of all, what are we celebrating if we're not actually doing all that well when it comes to mission? And what does it mean for the Church to be missionary and to extend the work of evangelization that the Church had called for and that Pope Francis was inviting at that moment?

And I think it really started with our archbishop who began to really think about what the Holy Spirit was doing in the Archdiocese of Vancouver.

[00:18:14] Jim Jansen: And this is Archbishop Michael Miller at the time. 

[00:18:16] Eric Chow: Archbishop Michael Miller. Yeah, so our previous archbishop. 

[00:18:20] Jim Jansen: EquipCast alumnus. Just gonna say. 

[00:18:21] Eric Chow: There you go. So, through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, number of conversations, certainly a lot of prayer the response shifted from, "Let's run an event," to, "Let's use this event to launch a movement of missionary activity." And so Proclaim was birthed as a result of this movement of the Spirit through our archbishop and a few others.

And for me it was also a prompting to move from my work with Catholic Christian Outreach and then into the institutional church working for the archdiocese. So my first role was to be the director of this newly created movement called Proclaim, which we launched in October of 2019.

And our mission, as we had discerned it was and is to awaken disciples to proclaim Jesus in their homes and in their communities. And so I made reference to the, 400,000 Catholics , in Vancouver, and like most places, the majority of Catholics wouldn't necessarily call themselves intentional disciples.

And of those intentional disciples, a lot of them may not be fully engaged in the evangelizing work of the church. And so that was the target audience for us, the intentional disciples, those who love the Lord, and probably have heard the call to go and make disciples but may not be fully engaged in it.

That was the target for us as a movement, to say, "We have so many individuals in our parishes that are offering various gifts and charisms to the life of the parish, but let's see if we can inspire them to also go out and to begin to engage with people in their, what we call proximate periphery, those close to them but far from Jesus, and then to see where there can be opportunities to be relationally growing with these individuals that may lead to spiritual curiosity and then an invitation to consider more."

[00:20:15] Jim Jansen: Eric, talk more about the proximate periphery. That's such a, cool concept. Break that down for us 

[00:20:22] Eric Chow: I think sometimes when you hear the word evangelization, mission, you think that you're gonna have to go to some place that's outside of your own community to where there is, no semblance of faith, right? You're gonna have to go to some random village in some place, very exotic in order to become a missionary.

But I think what we wanted to communicate to everyday Catholics here in Vancouver is that the mission is right in front of you. And so the proximate component is the people that are close to us, the people that are relationally engaged in doing life with us, whether it's in our families or our communities, our kids and their soccer teams, or, our workplaces. That's proximate. 

And what's on the periphery would be those individuals in their relationship with God and the church. And so in that way, the mission territory that has been uniquely entrusted to each and every one of us is right in front of us. It's like it's at the tip of our nose, the people that are around us.

And from there, we wanted to be able to give individuals the awareness that these people are in front of us, and then offer to them some insights, some tools, some ways of thinking about, the mission territory that allowed them as we state in our mission statement, to proclaim Jesus in some way, either through witness of life or through word and deed. 

[00:21:39] Jim Jansen: I love like, just helping people recognize that they're right in front of you, because for many people, if you ask the question: "hey, do you know someone, maybe a cousin or a neighbor or a coworker, a immediate family member who was once Catholic and is no longer practicing, or who has never been practicing their faith?" Everybody's like yeah." To realize okay that's your mission field. They're right there. So powerful.

[00:22:08] Eric Chow: Yeah. Pope Francis put out a document called the Evangelii Gaudium, The Joy of The gospel and you could say that would be proclaim's textbook. There's a line in it where, Pope Francis says, "I dream of a missionary option that is a missionary impulse that's capable of transforming everything."

Ways of doing things, time schedules that would allow us to be less self-referential and then more, in service to the evangelization of the world. And in that we hear as well this invitation to reach out to three bodies of individuals, those who are part of our parishes, those who have drifted for some reason, and then those who first and foremost, those who have never heard of the name of Jesus, who are not baptized, et cetera.

And so if we were to turn this into practical application for each and every one of us and to think about this proximate periphery that we have, we could ask that question who in my life right now in my parish doing regular pastoral ministry work, who's living a Catholic life who am I connected to right now that I might be invited to invite Jesus into their life in a more meaningful way. Who in my life right now are baptized and perhaps drifted away from the life of faith, and who in my life right now has no faith background whatsoever? And if we were to pause, whether it's at the kitchen table or, in the living room with a notebook, and to just write these names down just as a way to put faces and names to this concept of evangelization and proximate periphery.

I think just that one practical thing could start prompting, a deeper prayer life to intercede for them, but also a way of asking the Holy Spirit why are these people in my life, and what plan do you have for them, and what plan am I to participate in because I'm in relationship with them?"

The Holy Spirit is the principal agent of evangelization, the protagonist, the one who is doing everything. And so for us, we have to come to the disposition in evangelization that God is always and everywhere and perfectly working, and so our job is just to find out what's up. "Holy Spirit, what are you doing?"

[00:24:14] Jim Jansen: I'm the junior... partner here. It's not "All right, Lord, I have a beautiful plan for their life. Please help me." To just have a list and then to ask the question, Lord, what are you doing and how can I help?" He will answer that prayer. He will show you.

[00:24:30] Eric Chow: Absolutely. We do workshops on listening and accompaniment and proclamation and various different topics and, almost every time a parent will come and they'll ask, how do I bring my kid back to church?" And part of what we would offer would be the encouragement that God is everywhere and always and perfectly working.

And so, your plan for your child, I'm certain, is good and great, but God's plan for that child is even bigger and broader. And so, to take the time to pray into your child's life and then to also ask, "Holy Spirit, what are you currently doing in his or her life right now, and where am I being asked to participate in that?"

Gives parents a sense of confidence that, they don't have to be the answer for them, and that they don't have to try to change their behavior or try to move them in such a way that they think would be best for them. It would be more to say, "Oh, the Lord is inviting me right now to love them so well and not to expect something of them," that might just kinda turn them away. 

[00:25:34] Jim Jansen: Yeah. No, I mean, as a missionary doing my fundraising, I'd find myself in people's living rooms and they're like, "well, our kids, it just, it breaks our heart." And I remember at one point i, I connected the story of saint monica and Saint augustine. Everybody knows, Augustine's a wild child. He is not, into his mother's faith, and every time monica tries to intervene in Augustine's life, it just seems to send him further away. 

Her role was prayer, and there was this crazy beautiful moment where he lies to her. He actually says he's just going out with friends. In fact, he's getting on a boat and he's headed to Rome. And at that time, Rome is, like Sin City. He wasn't going there for a pilgrimage. And she's gotta be like, "Lord, what in the world?" Well, that's where he meets ambrose. And I think it's Monica's prayers that make Ambrose the saint, whose then preaching and life and the Christian community that he established actually converts Augustine. 

I think it's just for parents, it's like the Lord's at work and you have a role to play, but it may not be the one persuading them to come back to church.

Eric, I'm reminded, you know, again, our friend Michael hall talks about prophetic listening that there's this listening where I am deeply listening to the other person, but I'm also listening to the Holy spirit at the same time. How do you have like your left ear on God and your right ear on, on the person? Like, how do you do that?

[00:27:09] Eric Chow: Yeah. I think listening is one of those skills that we have to learn to do in the moment and as the moment. So what I mean by that is taking the time before we encounter people every day to listen to the Holy Spirit. Lord, who are you calling me to? How are you inviting me to show up in all of the different relationships and interactions that I have today?

And I think that's, listening as the moment. And then listening in the moment is taking the time when you're interacting with individuals you're not trying to think about the agenda or the thing that you're trying to say or the idea that you wanna convince, of the other.

You're sincerely listening to what they are saying and why they are saying it and why, the Holy Spirit is letting you hear what you're hearing as a result of what they're saying. And again, I'm gonna, go back to Pope Francis in Evangelii Gaudium, he has this beautiful paragraph that says, "Listening is different from hearing." And when we listen, we're trying to listen to their heart. Why are they sharing what they're sharing in this very moment? 

And why, God, are you allowing me to hear what I'm hearing as a result of it? And then the next part of that would be, like, how am I to respond, right? And oftentimes, I would say response would be more around asking more questions to allow for the individual to be more aware of what's going on in their lives. It really is about learning how to be fully present in the moment and to say I'm gonna give of myself in this situation out of love for that individual. I'm putting aside all of my agenda to love them and to hear them and to know that God has a plan, and I'm trying to participate in that plan."

[00:28:45] Jim Jansen: Eric, I wanna go back to something you said earlier when you were listing these three layers of individuals that we need to, reach out to. Those who are in the parish who can just grow more, those who've kinda drifted away, who aren't practicing their catholic faith, and then those, who've maybe never been Catholic. You said first and foremost, those who have never, been catholic who've never had an encounter with Jesus. I want you to say more about that because I think there's a whole bunch of people who are like, "Wait, what? First and foremost? No. First and foremost is let's build up the faith of those who are there, or let's go get our, non-practicing members." But you said first and foremost for those who have never had an encounter with Jesus. Say more about that. 

[00:29:35] Eric Chow: I'll first reference the actual wording in Evangelii Gaudium is that first and foremost, and so It is the language of the church, and that the church's understanding of evangelization is that we would go out and to bring all people into the family of God and to allow them to be encountered by God.

And so, that's one part. But the second part that I think is more practical and more, I think relevant to each and every one of us would be the universal call to holiness, so a call to mission. And Pope Benedict has that beautiful sort of imagery of the coin and says that holiness and mission are two sides to the same coin.

And so when we think about mission, it shouldn't just be about the people that are part of our parish communities. Certainly, there are many in our parish communities that may not be living as an intentional and, Christ-centered disciple. But I think that our hearts should be for those who have never heard of Jesus Christ and have never heard of his saving message and is living a life that, for whatever reason is without God.

And when we put on that missional mindset, then everything within our life shifts because even that work of reaching out to drifted Catholics and the work of reaching out to our parish communities kind of has its frame from the idea that we would wanna reach the very furthest away.

And so, if we only evangelized our, parish community, we'll never evangelize the drifted, from our community. And if we don't evangelize the drifted from a community, we won't evangelize those who are far from us. And so starting from the furthest away means that our approach and our mindset and our hearts will inevitably also think about and have a heart for those that are closer to us in terms of their connection to the church.

[00:31:24] Jim Jansen: I mean, that's so clear, but I just have to point out how counterintuitive that is, I think, to most people's kinda pastoral sensibility, and certainly to practice. But it makes sense, right? If you're going fishing and you cast a big net way out from the boat, you're also gonna get the ones near the boat. But if you only cast a net to those near the boat, you're never gonna get anything far away. And to be super clear, that's our responsibility. Every single soul in the parish boundary, every nation, every tribe, every tongue, we're supposed to go get all of them. And it is actually understandable but backwards to try and focus interiorly first. Now, I wanna be careful with that because by interior, well, yes, let's focus on the interior life and our prayer. But as we focus on our prayer and our holiness, thank you, Pope Benedict it's a two-sided coin. So as I am trying to grow in my relationship with Jesus, I just have to remember the one thing He really wants is my soul, and then the soul of those that he has put in my proximity. I mean, that's what He wants more than anything else. He's like, "I'm thirsting, dying from thirst for these souls. Please bring them to me." 

[00:32:51] Eric Chow: Yeah. And again, practically speaking, in our training, we would try to offer , these ways, these skills, these actions that get people thinking about how their life can be a mission. And so one of the things that we've done has been to give them some training around invitations. And, we don't just talk about why invitation matters or, the mechanics of them.

We do it in the moment. And so, we'll take some time to invite participants to prayerfully discern, who's on their heart right now to reach out to, and then we'll go through an exercise of asking like how do you know them? How do you talk to them? What are the means of communication?

And then we'll say, "Okay, in the next 10 to 15 minutes, you're gonna make an invitation right now to them in the moment." And they kinda get freaked out. They're like, "Are you serious? What?" And we'll say, "Look, you're in a safe space right now. Everyone feels the same way that you do, and we're gonna help you and support you. If we were to think about, who is Lord of your life and why you put that name down, 

The principle of it is that, like you're motivated by love. Love for God, love for this individual. And the skill of it is something that you may not have been able to practice, so we're gonna practice it together."

And so in those moments they're doing mission, and they're doing something that's very outward-focused, but they're also being called into the life of holiness. "Lord, I need to depend on you in this moment, 'cause i'm fearful of the outcome. And I also need to depend on my community of people around me to encourage me.

And I also have to let go of the results because God, you are in charge." And so, in that very moment, you're focused on mission but you're being invited into holiness, and I think that's like the two-sided coin component coming to life. We'll say often in our movement you often hear like you can't give what you don't have. But I also think the opposite is true, is that you won't be able to have what you won't give away. Jesus wants to go out. And so, in order for you to have more of his life in you, you also have to give him away.

[00:34:46] Jim Jansen: I mean, eric, that is so huge. If holiness, again, one definition is just an increase in faith, hope, and love, there is nothing like mission, particularly evangelization, but i... think it's true for all of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, There's just nothing else that helps me grow in love in a more tangible way than having to step out and make an invitation. There's nothing, that I mean, hope, if hope is an expectation, do I expect that even if I don't see it that the Lord is gonna use this? And faith, it's like, do I- trust? Can I- trust that oh my gosh I even though I can't see the results that my obedience and my loving invitation is, going to be a gift, even if I can't quite see how. I mean, it is a super concrete way to grow in holiness, right? Faith, hope, and love. 

[00:35:40] Eric Chow: Yeah. 

[00:35:41] Jim Jansen: 

Eric, let's Take a quick break to share a resource. We'll be right back. 

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Let's get back to the episode.

If I can maybe pivot a little bit here. Follow me on this. We're both weirdos, right? I mean, it's like we are professional catholics. God entered our life. We became missionaries, then we started working for diocese. Like that's kinda weird period, full stop. And now we live in this interesting time where it is at least a little bit kind of cool to be Catholic.

Pope francis was so well-loved by those who were on the periphery, they connected with him in a powerful way, and so his death, and then pope Leo's election and, then the OCIA numbers, and there's just a number of things going on where when you're a professional Catholic, so much of your role is to serve catholics who, if you do even a marginally good job, they're just grateful people. And so you get that, and then the culture might be shifting so that there's just moments where it's actually okay to be catholic and kinda cool.

How do you live as a disciple? How do you live on mission when you've got this kinda professional thing going on, how do you keep the radical, generous, authentic part of being a disciple? 

[00:37:35] Eric Chow: Yeah. Maybe I'll first start by sharing something that we say often in our family, which is that with privileges come responsibility. I think that working in a diocese is a privilege, but there is also a, a deep responsibility that I feel, not just, because I wanna do good work, but because I get a chance to be part of the church that I love.

And as a disciple of Jesus, I find the privilege of allowing for my time and my talents to be wholeheartedly offered in service to the church in this way, it really is an honor. And so I do see that as a real responsibility, and I think the responsibility for me is to live out deeply everything that we would share, teach, exhort bring forward.

And so, the life of a disciple, I think, invites all of us to think about a way of life that permeates every aspectevery slice of the pie that defines who I am. And so that means a committed prayer life, committed sacramental life ensuring that I'm growing in the life of virtue, that the scriptures are deeply a part of my daily life that I'm, regularly thinking about others and asking the Lord, "How are you inviting me to be on mission in my world?"

my world isn't just my work. I have five kids, and so I'm interacting with the kids' teachers, and the school communities, and their activities, and other families. And so, in that way, I'm living out a lot of what all of the laypeople are called to live out, which is, to be in the world, and to interact with the world, and to sanctify the world from within.

I think because I work for the church, I have to be even more aware of it, certainly because I can't be just, a working professional in the church, and then to have a, a duplicitous home life but to be fully engaged in the life that God has invited me to.

I'd also, say, as I said earlier, that, we're that family because my wife also works at the parish. And we wanna be able to communicate to our kids that a life on mission and a life in the church in the way that we live is different than other families that they observe.

But I would never want for them to think that because it's different they're missing out on something. And so, spending more time in the parish or, having to wait after mass longer than other families or, not being able to do certain things because both m- mommy and daddy work evenings and weekends.

Those I would not want our kids to experience as a kind of like second-rate life. And not to say that we would, indulge them with more consumeristic things and to say, "Hey, look, we're gonna live in the world, and you're gonna have everything that the world promises," but that in some way the experience of living on mission in this way would tangibly bring in their lives a deeper joy and like a settling in their own spirit that this is exactly where God is calling them, and that their life has been offered in the full.

I wanna ask, like, how do you do that? 'Cause that's hard. I mean, I'm at the point now where I have some adult children, and my college students and my oldest, they're like, " yeah, i'm glad you didn't just get me a car. Yeah, I'm glad we weren't allowed to watch those movies. So they're grateful for the sacrifices and the life choices that we made very much on their behalf. How do you do that with the younger kids who can easily only see the consumeristic, , but they have this and I don't"? 

Maybe I'll give an example. I think a couple of weeks ago, I was asked to be part of a weekend retreat conference and that meant that I was not around for the weekend. and it's not just my lack of presence that the kids feel, but certainly, the things that we don't get to do because we're not fully engaged as a family over that weekend. 

And so, what I try to do in those situations is to communicate to the kids, why we're doing what we're doing, and who we're talking to, and to share some stories of what is going to happen, and to invite them in to be part of the mission through their prayers and their sacrifice.

And at the same time, because I was speaking and presenting, the organizers, offered a small stipend that they gave at the end of the weekend, and I share it with the kids. And I let them know that this wasn't daddy's gig that I got paid for.

This was a family mission for which all of us are to share in the blessing that we received. And so the kids, they take that, and they're like, "Oh, that's gonna be part of our ice cream fund," or, some of them, like they have their own spiritual practices of tithing, and so "Okay, I'm gonna put this part in our giving jar, and then I'm gonna use this part for my savings."

And so, for them, when those activities occur that feel like they're deficits to our family, we try to shift it. We're not always great at it, but, we try to shift it to, to give them a chance to say "We're part of the mission in our small little way. Daddy's not around, but we're still part of what, he does on the ground. We're the supporting cast behind him."

[00:42:38] Jim Jansen: That's so cool. I love that. And I mean, I have to say, it sounds like it's working. Before we turned on the mics, we were talking about howyour kids have a spiritual awareness as they interact with their peers. They're noticing an openness. They know how to see at least a little bit where the hearts and minds of their peers are in terms of faith. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

[00:43:06] Eric Chow: Maybe I'll start by saying that , my wife Vanessa and I we approach our family life from a very ordinary sort of normal... we try to just normalize as much of how we live as possible. And so spiritual conversations in our house, praying together spontaneously, sharing about how we're seeing God move, like, all those things are normal conversations in our house.

And so, the conversations around matters of faith and the stories that I get to bring through Proclaim and through the things I get to do are regular dinner conversations. And so with that, I can have these normal conversations with my girls, I have three girls, and they're in high school right now.

And I'll ask the question like, ", I know you guys talk about all kinds of random things, but, what is it like to bring up matters of spirituality?" And so that isn't an odd question to them. That's just something that's pretty normal dinner conversation.

And what surprised me was that they said it's actually quite normal that their peers have questions about spiritual things, and that it's not awkward for them to bring it up. But what is a little bit not concerning, but certainly things that, they've raised is they have these questions that are not being answered at home, and they actually don't know where to go with it.

And so a couple of my girls have, wanted to engage in various initiatives like Youth Alpha or, some initiatives that are happening at the parish. We do a monthly adoration with praise and worship. It's almost like what I'm learning and doing and teaching in Proclaim is happening at the dinner table, where I'm saying, "Hey, spend more time with them.

Get to know their questions. , engage in those things, and if the timing is right, and if it's not awkward, invite them. Invite them to come with us." And, we've gone to these monthly adorations and, our girls will say, "Hey, I just texted my friend and she's taking the bus here."

And I said, "Okay, go to the bus stop and wait for them and then walk them over and spend time with them in the church. You don't have to sit with us." It's not about us. ... Good for you for thinking of the opportunity. The Holy Spirit has moved in you, and go and spend time there.

So it's discerning the signs of the times or, I think you had Michael Hall on , on podcast before, where he would have talked about intentional accompaniment and the prophetic listening. It's like it's the lay-of-the-land stuff, right?

You're just kind of surveying and seeing what are the opportunities that God's bringing in this moment.

[00:45:20] Jim Jansen: Well, and the thresholds where I'm just like, Okay, wait a minute. Does this person trust me? Okay. are, are they open? Uh, Yeah, actually, I think they are. Okay, well then, I probably, ooh, okay uh, might be a little nervous, but I, I could probably make an invitation." And so being able to have those mental frameworks in the hearts and minds of young people oh man, that's so, awesome.

Cause people talk about, "Oh, we're in a post-Christian age." Yes, but also we're starting to enter a post-secular age where there's a number of people, that's like, I've been living this life without god long enough to know it's not working." And now they're open. 

[00:46:00] Eric Chow: Yep, yep, totally. Yeah.

[00:46:02] Jim Jansen: So good. Eric I wanna give you a chance. All the things that we've talked about, just like, parishes embracing hospitality, individuals embracing their own call to mission, recognizing that it's, right at hand, this proximate periphery, really beginning to listen to the Spirit, attending to, like, "Okay, where's my friend at and how do I meet them there?", And, all the other stuff building a clear path, small groups, and things that we haven't discussed that, we could, nerd out about cause we're all, on the same page about those things. 

I wanna give you a moment here just to kinda speak hope , into the future. What Do you think could happen if the Catholic Church in the united States and Canada were, really to embrace these habits as individuals and as communities? 

[00:46:51] Eric Chow: Maybe I'll start with an image of a family vacation that we took I wanna say a couple years ago, we went down to the Oregon coast. And on the Oregon coast, you can have these bonfires right on the beach, and, we had our little bonfire, and because you can see, down one side of the beach and down the other, you can also see these little fires that are, burning as well.

So, imagine being on the beach in the dark. You've got a fire in front of you, and then you see these little fires around you. And to me, it was an image of how the church is being invited to grow today. So, we see some parishes that are, kind of... they're contracting. They're not growing. We see some areas where faith is not growing, and at the same time, we see small fires of missionary disciples that are coming up and are beginning to be on fire for mission and to bring others to the fire. And so, to me I think that in the age that we're in and the things that we're seeing and how the Holy Spirit is moving, there is a call for those who love the Lord to go deeper in their relationship with God and in mission, which will set their own hearts on fire, which then will allow for these little pockets of fires to make it across the entire beach so that anyone who's searching, who's looking, who's cold, who's just looking for a fire will have places to go. They're not gonna be lost for too long. And so, I think as we embrace what's occurring right now in our worlds, both globally and locally I'm excited to see this stirring up of individuals who are ready and willing to say yes to the Lord with a deep conviction that they're to give of their lives, like the everything in their life over to the Lord for mission and to the service of the Church and the building up of the kingdom and that we'll start to see these small fires, just more and more small fires coming up in order to reach the lost.

[00:48:42] Jim Jansen: Man, ah, that's a beautiful vision. Eric, last thing here. For those who are listening to this, they're like, "Oh, crap. I feel this tug. I want to share my faith. eric just gave me, like 10 ideas. I'm a little overwhelmed. I'm a lot scared. I don't know what to do." What's like, the one or two things? 

[00:49:05] Eric Chow: Yeah. I would say go grab a notebook, go grab your journal, and take some time in prayer, in prayerful reflection, and ask the lord "Who's in my life? And who, do you want me to pay attention to?" And then to write those names down, to look over those names visually, tangibly , in front of you, to picture their faces, and then to pray with those names.

Not just to intercede for their lives, but to ask the Holy Spirit "What are you already doing in their life right now and how am I to participate in that?" And that's it. I think that would be like one tangible next step. And then, to go into that time with expectant faithto have a sense and confidence that God will speak to you and will offer a next step relationally with that individual that will allow you to engage in mission.

Proclamation of the gospel is only one part of evangelization. Certainly an important and necessary part, but our witness of life and our interactions relationally with others is so important that if we were to take that moment to write names down and to sit with it, pray with it, let the Holy Spirit guide us and move us, then I think everything else will begin to fall into place as God plans for it.

[00:50:21] Jim Jansen: Eric, if somebody wants to learn more about your work at the archdiocese, in proclaim, how can they connect with you? 

[00:50:30] Eric Chow: Yeah, you can go to weareproclaim.com. you can find me there. We also host a podcast, and you can find usin our social medias @weareproclaim. 

[00:50:39] Jim Jansen: Eric, thank you. Thank you for what you do. 

your stories practical wisdom. This has been really encouraging.

So Those of you who are listening to this, maybe you know somebody or somebodies that you need to share this out with. Say like, "hey, I want you to listen to this, and let's get together and let's have a drink, and let's pray and talk together about how we take our first step , to live this out. Let's come together. We've all got note cards and a pen, and we're gonna write out our list of the people that we're gonna pray for." When you are at your destination and you are safe to do this, share it out with a friend.