The Hardtech Podcast - Longan Vision Episode
Guest: Enzo Jia, President & Co-Founder, Longan Vision
Hosts: DeAndre Harakas and Grant Chapman
Recorded in person in Indianapolis

Note: this was recorded in person and the source only diarized two channels,
so speaker labels are approximate and blend the hosts and guest in places.
Names in the raw audio were auto-transcribed and are unreliable.

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[00:00:05] Speaker 2:
Welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:09] Speaker 1:
Everybody, welcome back to the Heart Tech podcast. I'm your host, Andre Henricus, with my usual suspect who is back. Grant Chapman, back in the seat today.  Super exciting episode today. Enzo happens to be in town for the FDIC event, which is the firefighter big event here in Indianapolis. And we connected a week ago and he was like, hey, I can either do it online or if we could do it in person the very next week, he was willing to come in person. So welcome to the show, Enzo. Oh, guys. You have me here. Yeah, absolutely. Would love just to kind of kick it off on the technology that you've built that you're currently displaying. And I would love to learn more about it. Sure. So this is so this is what we're building is kind of AR plus thermal  like smart helmet ideas and was designed built for  firefighting successful and first boundaries. Right. The the most important idea for this product to help them see vectors in a small dark environment. That's the number of issues are facing  in that environment. So for example, it's building getting  fire or in confined space, there are going to be a lot of smoke and probably operating in a dark environment. And you're looking for way out or working for victims inside of the building. And it's actually a problem right? For me during I have never even goggle right. But even having a cargo can now see thermal cannot see hotspot. Right. But what normal firefighter do is they have a handheld thermal imaging camera. They basically using one hand to hold that camera, scan the room looking for person or their exit where their way out. Right. But again you have one occupied. Right. So  there's a lot of fire department asking for hand free solutions, especially if we're working with the project was native back in 2018, and we worked with Department of National Defense of Canada. And because you're from Toronto, right near Toronto. Yeah, from Toronto. And to be honest, and so we have a requirement to  working for 100, 100 reasonable for firefighting. So that's why we take the challenge. And this is the product can actually come to life. So as I mentioned the main function is how to see through smoke and give them a hand free. And we're also adding additional functionalities like video recording streaming functionalities. And the chief can even send a text message from tablet or from dispatch to show up on the display unconditionally  on the issue. So the one problem we told us is that you are in the environment, right? There's radio chattering, there's some things going on or something or you. Okay. What that you just just just that. Right. But there's a text message in front of you floating around, right? You cannot miss that. Or if it's not responding to that text message that something goes wrong. Right. And it can be for more than just that moment in time for 10s or 20s. So it's not like I'm busy fighting this crazy explosion in front of me. I missed the audio. It's, oh, I got done with, you know, the door blowing in. Oh, I need to get out of this building because the left wing is collapsing. Exactly. I think it's I think it's super cool. So it's in real time comms, right? I mean, there's literally fires all around you. There's chaos going on naturally. It's smoky. And this is a way to immediately communicate with the deputies inside of saying, hey, look, you know, this part of the building just fell down or something along those lines, right? Exactly. Right now is the father can now send text message back yet. So that's something you still working on the user interaction. Because we don't have a keyboard here. Sure. Tap the message so that some things we are working on. Maybe you have a quick  selection of a message. Tap one button rotating. There's basically yes yes a positive response. Negative response. Yeah something like that. That's something we're still working on. But right now it's like the ship can actually send message. The firefighters should have a radio on them. So at least they could respond verbally, right? Yeah. You can come forward and active. Right. Exactly. That's great. And so when you say you got started through this program, were you guys in, you know, in school at the time and another firm like what was the was the origin story. How did you get started. Oh that's a that's a good start actually.  So back to the day. And so all four founders, including myself all from McMaster University. So we all work in the same lab,  McMaster Automotive  Resource Centers. Mark. That's one of the building calls. So we're working also from including me for all of us working at. So each of us working on different directions  back to the days I'm more research on high  school technology for vehicles to see this  CV or even new Toyota can put information on the literature, right? It is crazy how fast it went from like only in high end Mercedes all the way to your entry level hot and toilets and yeah, so the technology has evolved and so we are part of that research and it helps optical design how to put informations  on the show. Right. And you have overcome the some problem. And you have to make sure the, the,  the source is not enough to actually  counter, basically counter the side and reflect back in the right direction. Exactly right. Yeah. So that's part of the research was doing when I was in my school and my  co-founders  working on more robotics and everyone working on autopilot, driving based on infrared, several cameras. Oh very cool. Another one working on that. And my last co-founder through his PhD right now. So he's still working on the AI for this system at this moment. And so that's how the team found it basically for students network from master or  PhD and staying up too late talking about the problems and realizing they all could put them together. Exactly one they can. We just combine all our research to tackle maybe some problem. Right? So like we sit down and then we saw this was actually in my class.  There's actually a salvation program. It's looking for  companies to convert leaders. So.  Oh cool. Like a studio like to spawn companies out of the university. Exactly. The the subject called Force Fortress Neck Masters. So that's actually how we get started. So it's  okay, let's maybe just from some ideas and talk to for forge may give some directions. Right. So because you're all nerds you're all engineers. We are all engineers. Mechanical software. The hardware like neatly no pieces of people. Yeah. So that's how we get started. Yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah. And so and so this is, you know, you had this  accelerator that kind of helped you guys get transition from research only like technology into we need to engineer for a purpose to go solve a problem, to hopefully make money one day, but definitely save people's lives. And I love that this, you know, this place, this accelerator gave you guys that look, all the catalyst to get out of the lab and get in the real world. Exactly. So initially when we speak with Salvator, we didn't know our users. We do not know the direction we are going. So we think about the accelerator. Basically give us four directions for us. Three of about  network of industrial versus boundaries or military. So that's the three directions. There's suggestions going and the basic and the basic. We take us in and think  we can we can help you form the company. And potentially we have some initial funding for you guys to start this thing. And you can start doing your customer if they call it like customer discovery. Yeah. Customer discovery. Yes. So that's why back in 2018 summer are we doing our company discovery. So speaking with industrial facilities summary line and also speaking with these officers, Swat teams and fire departments and turn out to be the fire department are actually the most person who came for these technologies here. Yeah. You had the hammer that best fit their nails. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. So so that's why we come up with part kind of our founders RSL program and our mentor. Just tell us, okay. Then if there's a kind of analyzing  industrial, maybe there's multiple earlier. And for police or defense, there's maybe a lot of questions about  compliances. And  and then we don't we don't want to get involved there. We don't want people using our you want to save people, right. Not be all offensive. Exactly. And then we look at first sponsor and search rescue or firefighters. There's there's basically not too many competitors and few competitors. And but there are  there are drawbacks that the the science behind that is extremely difficult because the design the whole design have to survive. Sorry. You Fahrenheit like 600 Fahrenheit and we speak Celsius for engineers. Okay. It's six 250°C. Yeah. Hard to get plastic that want to survive. That's a problem is that one is remarkable.  So the whole design was based on several dynamics thermal like material he transfers. Yeah. And even about cooling how we design system for coatings and how to make sure the battery is  exposed in the higher temperatures. Right. Well, it's one of the things that like you have to, like, make sure your electronics aren't generating heat because you're trying to keep the heat out, which means you're insulated, which we then you make inside. You get the keep with you until you're done. Exactly, exactly. So basically you are not including. Yeah. You have some reserve. Reservoir. Yeah. Thermal reservoir. It's like a like a capacitor you can load up with heat. And once you're full, you're full. Exactly. So that's the whole science kind of the technology challenge.  It's not consumer product. Right. We're air glasses or something like that or matter or like the old Google Glass design that things for room temperature from 50°F up until maybe 110°F. Sure, you don't need the ball to ruin water or smoke or or open flame or generally everything. It's not good for technology, right? Especially in that environment. I'm curious, like when you look at a product like this, that has to be 230°C. Like, how big of a problem is that for an engineer? Well, it's really hard because, well, it's hard and easy. It's easy because it limits your search space. There's so many plastics in construction method you can't use, but it's really hard because the ones that you can are really expensive and no one really understands them. And there you have to find an expert, right? Because like just in mechanical engineering undergrad we aren't taught, oh, this is the plastic used when you have to go survive open flame in these temperatures. So you guys probably have become experts at that pretty quick. Right. So we have some search project with different universities back in 2019 from the school resources. And then another problem is the mold spectrum classic. It's hard to melt that palette. Yeah. You have to have such a hard mold and it has to run really hot. Right. And then the mold cost is extremely costly. Yeah. What  what plastic are you guys using? Is it peak? No peak. It's different. I can't I can't say  explicitly. That's fine. That's part of the trade secret. This is kind of the, the  the cool innovation of the product. Right. Especially on the counter cause it's kind of combined materials scatters and that's awesome. Yeah. So so that's the, the mechanics side. And then the other side I'm sure is really challenging in your environment. Is the optics right. Like getting a heads up display. You have to shoot the light through the smoke in front of the person to bounce back into their eyes. Like, how was the challenge with that going? That's still the challenge. I would call it still the challenge. So right now basically we are we try a different type of these points, neither using waveguide free form display and through what other people using what we've got from home is that. So we put that in on. So the first thing we have new optical component and the first hasn't always the free form get melted. Waveguide got shattered that we had in the heat in 200 degrees. So I said okay there's there's no obstacles in the internal stresses exactly as a glass. Right. It's basically shooting a  pass into the glass. So so so okay. So we cannot buy the bad display. Right. We can just use the official we have to make one or all optical display. So we just stick with the basic technology refractions using refraction. Basically you can see there's two screen here right. And then basically you just screen using that screen. It's very similar screen their current handheld ticks use them. Yeah. And then we just send the to two image here and  project with these visors and then refer back to our arcs. Yeah. So the symbol but it  is just a really bright backlight is basically what it is. Right. There is overdrive in a backlight to have it reflect bright enough in your eyes that you can see it. The regular screen might not show up in that environment. Yeah, but well,  it's pouring. Kong, I would call for that case because they always  are pretty, pretty smoking dark dark. So you do need to have two strong bright. Do you guys have like a brightness detection. Like a, like a auto dimming. We don't have that. We don't we don't have that. That's maybe some snacks we can think about. But right now because there's no  there's no RGB. So all the camera sensors based on this thermal sensor. Yes they are. Yeah. Infra IR. So so that's why you can set up the brand in the setting can change that. But normally they just top it up to the maximum. Yeah. And yeah. So that's the optical part. And also these especially this curvature and kind of design this character. Make sure because the screen which is put here is not like around. It's all flat. It's  you have to put as a curvature. Right. Like like like like fat like what's called something like that, like a radius on all the so that when it reflects off the round it's straight when you see. Oh it makes sense. Yeah. In the back keep constantly calculating that that one. And make sure that you are seeing a clear image in the display. Exactly. And then the other thing I have to think about is deformations of the virus. Because still this is special plastic. I'm still going to move. It gets hot and cold. So this is the same plastic using for this big harmonizer, the same exact same plastic. But there's four layers of coating. We did research output. So basically there's a hardened coating and square. And then basically there's  anti fog. So I have to pull out all moisture from hydrophobic coatings. The fog. Yeah yeah yeah. And then there's other two layers of coding as well to make sure I think anti scratch anti fog probably a reflective layer refraction layer. Yeah. Like refraction layer as well. So the whole thing was another thing. Not a research project. Never tried to be  tackled. But we'll get it there. And so that's actually the federal product. Well it's incredible because whenever you and I first connected you said yes, we've been working on this hardware product for every bit of four years. And so like it is what you kind of gone through. Is that really kind of just depicting all the different research projects, understanding all the different, you know, constraints that you had to design around. Like, what was that whole experience like each year were kind of each year there's one challenge we have solved. Then there's optical PCB material selections or ergonomic, right. It's not going to rewind the clock a little bit. Like what was the what were the prototyping tools you started prototyping with like 3D printers to get the initial form factor. But those plastics were going to melt. Yeah. And then like, did you use any like local prototype production techniques to, to test the plastics, like did you ever machine down like a block of that, like high temp plastic or did you go straight to tooling. So we kind of just three step. So first thing we're using the 3D printers cf high temperature carbon fibers right to test the organ first and then testing materials. So to test materials we're using expensive way we think a block that can say we do the exact same machine. I showed you that back here. We can see that classic block to have the shape here. And the problem about still is the plastic is still very fragile. If you hit the ground you still going to shatter. So well the output solution still is the injection mold, right. Because you couldn't get the right blend of plastic in the block that you can get from the injection mold that blends your property have thermal resistance and toughness. Is that why you had like something that was more brittle? Yeah, exactly. So that's kind of what we by the first is we are trying to testing is that plastic can survive in the high temperature. Right. So that's why we can test this. So step by step right now make sure it's shapes. There seems since material make sure the thermal is there. The temperature reducing the flame resistance is there is there. And then okay we've seen the errors in school. And we actually sent a bunch of our sins unit go boy right to native from to Europe to Japan and all for for all testing.  So that's the kind of trust adventure we have here. We have our partners like everywhere, not only like go believe we can  extend our we have from Europe, from from from Korea, from all the global counties. We can actually get feedback from all of them to summarize what we need to change. Yeah. What was good, what was bad. But I think that like the point that you just made is so important. You didn't jump to tooling and then hope people would like it. You went through expensive prototyping methods from three printing to then go to C and C, and then go get feedback from your users before you got to sale. And everyone in hardware needs to hear this, that you have to test with users before you go invest in high volume tooling. Your investors are going to see this. Your customers are going to be happier for it later, because you'll fix all the early bugs you can fix. Yeah, and I'm sure your engineers were happy because they learned all the things they needed to fix before they went to high volume. Exactly. So that's exactly what we did here. So make sure you have all the user feedback from now from only one single geographic area from Google. Yeah, because we are aiming to sell this into our goal customers. Right. That's all their department facing the same problem. They may have a different gear but they have a same problem. So that's why the journey we have been to, that's why we spent like 4 or 5 years  on R&D. Make sure this is correct. Built for firefighters and first boundaries right? Absolutely. One of the questions I've got for you is you guys spend four years building the product, right? So then you get it out. You guys are currently displaying the product right now in front of thousands of firefighters, and different folks from around the country are going to be there checking out the product. What has that feedback been from the industry as you've like rolled out this product based off all the research? I'm curious like what the adoptions looked like. I know we talked a little bit about that on the on the steel. The problem is the weight. Still the weight we still adding actual sorry using Cobra  900 gram  to the helmet. That's still a problem. Again, it's almost 2 pounds. Yeah. It's going to be difficult because the material is there. The material itself is is going to be there's also a reservoir and they say what is the most the the weight. Is it the thermal reservoir like the thermal mass or the battery. Like what is the the like in your bill of materials. What is your heavy components. Both those. But those are the two big ones. So this was  actually 5050. So this is 100 gram. This is the this is back all battery all back is battery. And all these play CPUs all computational display powers on the front. So it's like 5053 5050.  So sports. Yeah. Right. And in the front you probably have a ton of aluminum or other heat seeking materials to absorb that energy. Exactly, exactly. Oh, interesting. Metals are very good at conducting heat, right. To to pull the heat away from your processor. Is there any material that's better at storing it that has a higher thermal pass? It's like water comes to mind. Is pretty heavy. Yeah.  As heavy. We have a special material inside. Okay. You do? Are you using a phase change material to absorb heat? And you looked at that yet? Something like that. Okay. Something like that. So that's also part of the the research we have done with our universities, but also a busy ask our professor and you guys help them to solve this problem. Yeah. We need to store all the thermal energy and I don't care where it goes, as long as I can hold on to it for a second. We had a battery pack for our go karts that we built in college, that all the batteries were embedded into a graphite and paraffin mixture, and the paraffin would melt at 60°C, which is right before the batteries would get really unhappy. So you'd see your temperature rise up until it hit 60, and then it would be flat. Yeah. And you knew that you were totally good until it started to go to 62.  And then you're like, oh, we're out of melt. And now every degree is, you know, going to go really fast. It was a huge safety barrier for us. That was really cool. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So so you're having conversations with customers and it's a little heavy. But I'm curious like on the functionality of it. One of the things that we talked about, which I completely agreed with, which was as you begin to roll out, net new technology, there's actually a lot of innovation going into just this one product. And with the demographic like firefighters. Right. It's almost a layer of do we give them the whole thing or do we give them parts of it? As you roll out  good questions  ask or initial portal tap or I would love to have so much functionalities. It's literally like your smartphones. I don't  have to do cameras, have the RGB cameras have so much better display technologies and all that jazz. But I think actual weight and the thermal turning to much heat. And then basically we burn that prototype to the fire department. We said, okay, I really don't need to watch these too much technology. We can't we can't take like  everything was right. We do some reductions, reduce the weight, and also make sure that we can still like operating around 200°C environment. So that's our first prototype. So we  have so this is kind of internally called generation 666. Yes. For actually just about of  revisions on that. So basically from that literally different iterations is that like we kind of doing a lot of like adding and reductions. Right. The 13 months  everything in there in June 1st through the kitchen sink at it, every every feature you could think of because why not. Yeah, exactly. The first James one. Again we it's more like for testing the functionality. It's not for environment right. Which of these features do people really like. Exactly. And then we have errors in there. And then we have we know what to reduce. Right. The worst things that we don't want to face is that they ask themselves some functions. It's not out of tune one then you may need to try to add that functionality. But right now, from June 1st to June 6th, we are just doing reductions. We don't need that. We don't need that. We don't need that. We need to make sure that functions better. We improve on that. So it's kind of journeys, right. It's kind of like like simplify, simplify journeys. But you  as you mentioned, fire departments to challenge to new technology. There are tons of adoptions, but not all fire departments that parents want to try all technologies for them. There are still learning curve like it's kind of this technology I would call it. You have no care for the backing. Beginning of 2000. Suddenly in 2008 the iPhone came out, changed the whole thing. It's kind of like that right  back in right now. We just have a  whole team can only do take pictures. The recording of the video, that's it. Right now you have all the functionality. You have the text message, you have streaming functionality,  you have hand free and you have all the controls on the  on one hand. Right. So there's a lot of things for them to, to adapt. And they have to use those control through gloves. This is one of my favorite UX things is like what is your user doing when they're controlling your device. You know, do you have your fingers? Can you type in a touchscreen? And for you guys. Absolutely not. It has to all be done through a very thick gloved hand. Exactly. So that's why we have these special knobs. These are right right. We can change and press. And I can hear very like tactile feedback like click like very clear that you've made the next selection. Exactly. This is about requirement I have ensured we don't have this like clearly click things right then. Not that big click things.  But  after  I think for generations  asking for that. So we changed the rotary not to more like cliquey. Yeah, yeah. Give it some more tactile feedback so they can feel when they've made that next election even like we initially we have just one click for changing the mode. Now it's a two click. Yeah. So because sometimes we just only just attach that and accidentally change the menu or the setting or something. So that's another thing. Yeah. We we have been actually based on feedback it gave us and we, we did modification on that. No that's great. No. It just really goes to show you that the the power is cliche as it sounds, I'm pretty sure like the anchor of a lot of our podcasts, especially when we talk to founders like yourself, is like the feedback talk to customers just like screaming from the rooftops. Have the conversation with the customer, because there's probably no world where if you guys were like, you know, off on your own for V1, you guys wouldn't have thought, you know what? These firefighters are going to have these gloves and they're going to have a tactile feedback on whenever they change this gear. Yeah, of course not. That of course, happens whenever you guys get out in front of customers. But the encouraging part about what you guys have done so far is to say, okay, we came out with this version one. It had all the bells and whistles for it.  Honestly, fast forward 3 or 4 years from now, that version might be the new version you dropped once you once you've already gotten the adoption right, so you've already done a lot of that R&D. But more importantly, you guys have said, okay, let's begin to strip down the feature set and really just kind of focus on getting the initial adoption from the customers, getting closer and closer to that product market fit. So it just well done there. It just sounds like that's exactly the path you guys are going down. Still working on it. Still working on more Sassari for the unit. Right. Some people are asking. Can we make. So this is where this is where the mask be state. But you can see there's still some space between that. Yeah. So some customer asking could you make a plastic or  the rubber rubber piece like a guide. Like seal it in I see what you like. That's something like that. Like swimming goggle. Just see what could be the space between the mask. Oh, so you don't get any like, smoke or any sense between. So the, the scenes seems to be having here is actually we try to do design. This seem to be modular easy to fix. Right. So that's another Faber from the fire department is like something's broken. Then are we going to replace the whole system or just replace a part of it? Right. Right. For example, for our system, if the visor, for example, a shadow or cracked right one, two, three, four for school, this whole the front piece pop  up and put the new piece on for school. Sorry I'm there's fat on the side but yeah, you can you can just unbolted both back and then you can change different ways. Or as I mentioned, you feel on the full seal which is useful as a focal accessories right as that. And then for  the this is also an additional rubber, not rubber silica sorry. But silicone covers so that that's very fireproof, very flame resistant. Temperature proof. Yeah. If you for example, we have a different sections of the city car  depends on the temperature you are operating, if you like, always operating on higher temperatures in a secret silicon. It gives you more some more insulation. But bulk here it's just bagless. There's a bag. It's not your turn your car. And then it will go to more power or more steering or cameras that know where you want to turn more, more, more, more powers. Right. So everything. So so the feedback we are getting is try to design seem to be more and fixable for the fire departments. So that's another thing in the 1 or 2. There's nothing you can change. The error is fixed. Right. So after the feedback we're getting from Goebel users. So kind of implementing that as well in design phases make everything fixable and changeable and and adaptable. I love it. So as we always at the end of our podcast, I love to ask a few questions. And so it's almost like our fire round or whatever.  So what's like the number one piece of advice that you would give to  a founder just like yourself? Rewind back to whenever you're going through the studio, for example. Two questions I'm thinking. I think from the first thing that I'm from my mind is to never give up. Never give up. Because like, there's always doing these things and there's so much challenges, like it's hard for us, it's easy for people to just. I'm dumb. Damn, this is too much. And I will go for something and go for something else, but for for us, for internally, like we tell ourselves, we we still got user feedback, great user feedback. We don't want to give up. And this includes save people's life. We just we don't want to give up. We keep going, solve their challenges.  You know, that's always the case, especially you guys being pure engineers and transition from academia into the real world. There was probably so much you didn't know that you were going to face. Yeah, you are right. And it's my favorite question to ask is, are you glad you didn't know, or do you wish you knew more when you started? I said, glad we didn't know. Yeah. Because as we  were doing accelerator program is talking with mentors. It's like doing a small MBA course in the first beginning of the 4 or 6 months. Yeah, just a crash course in MBA. This is how business work. We think exactly the the school to give you all the resources to read. Mentors give you a force six months, six months of runway  and also mentor for a quick MBA course. Again, six months to figure out all the cooperation stuff, financial stuff, accounting stuff and investment stuff. Yeah. Good luck. Exactly. So, so like I think because we are kind of like blunt paper, right? We only know the engineering stuff. We didn't know anything about financials. So like the six months talking with them really helped us set up the stage. That's awesome. So there's then we work with different salary. There's more mentors and helping us as well. I think for us is really the mentor. Providing from different sector program is extremely helpful for us because we didn't we really didn't know how big this would work like this. So we really rely on rely on mentors, suggestions on okay, so basically we have this problem. How should we do we ask in the first month or second or third month or so how do I do sales? How do I hire people? How do we employ people here. Yeah. And also we are try to sorry. We try to also consolidating the mentors and the different mentors have different suggestions. But we kind of compare their answer to have a kind of decision to make. Right. So this is something that's something that  and one of them is conservative. One of them is saying be bullish. Let's go take some risks and you have to weigh which one do you want to listen to today. Exactly, exactly. So we kind of that's why we call more we are more very engineering even taking a while. We compare them right. Sure. Yeah. Which ones. What's what's problem. Protocols. Right. So that's actually  help us to make decisions and also help us to set up the stage for our conference. Right. Or we should do we should do. Right. Based on the suggestions from the outside, the the mentorship we are getting. No,  absolutely. Love it. It just goes to show you that the investment in like the mentorship, right? Like someone wanting to start that studio and then someone willing to invest in you guys early days, right. And just show you give you the crash course in the NBA and like, hey, this is how you do finances and raise money and then go figure it out. But that's really getting kind of full circle on the whole point of the hard tech podcast. Why we do this right is just for for this kind of conversation right now of like, if you learned anything from thing, from the conversation, it's one this is incredible piece of hardware. And so excited to hear how you guys succeed at the event in the future, but more importantly, having conversations with customers, implementing that feedback very quickly, and then getting back in front of those customers and ultimately have the perseverance to continue. Yeah, exactly. We have to keep going. I think this is this is the hope, right? People some  are asking that as well. And they really see this can save people's lives. Yeah. And so what I see for me is like I see a product and you are testing with users, and I'm sure you're either,  you know, and this is the question I've got is where are you in the on market journey. Is this for sale right now? Can buy it today. There's a lot of people already. There's a lot of not only us, but how many users do you have right now?  Wow. There's more than I think. 1015 the fire department crossed global. Amazing using our stuff. And is that like 1 or 2 units per department? So you have like maybe 50 or something like that. Some of them have them or some some have ten, some have to test them out. And seeing the biggest achievement we have is actually Tokyo Fire is testing is playing around with Ruiz. Congratulations. Take them to fire already. That's awesome. I also has been sponsored to the World Expo. Garcia, this all of our department as well.  So I think that's really a little we are currently also going with working with some of partner with NATO in Europe as well, to decline in that environment. So it's really I'm really proud that it's not only this is not only product market but like global for global stage. The problem is globally. And so you know you're this one called low volume point. What is the horizon for you guys as a business both in the financial side and in the side. You know are you guys fundraising actively or how are you funded today. And then how are you thinking about scaling from where you are today to high volume? Yeah. So in the past. So we are relying on investments. So we do have investors and interesting all our investors majority of investors strategic investors. The nether of fire companies or like like turn off your companies or firearm companies. So they are all our major investors are strategic investors. So we all understand the field and we can also help you me to sell. Oh certainly. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Serving both  as a manufacturing partners potentially. And also sales partners as well for different regions. So that's why we this is so so before we are relying on passive before the product hidden marketing. So this product hit the market in 2004. So that we have been two years on the market. Right. And so we should be  on the  the CVC, the cooperation between capital and the government funding. We can there is a lot of government funding like supporting these technology innovations that network have Arab or a threat to help you found or project  in the US SVR, SPR, which is finally back online. Not  really. Yeah, they just got regrouped this month.  Okay. Well, in Canada we have all different kind of from federal provincial fundings to keep people running keep because they saw this potential good like good product and because  your customers them as well. Right. So that's kind of the what they have done before. And right now we are still looking for right now we're looking for serious investment. And because their product in the market and some numbers there and we also have several. We are also working on several government contracts in Canada right now  with our partner in Europe and Asia to actually have dancing's workout. And yeah, so that's kind of curse that the current stage and we are kind of growing our sales production as well to PCV supplying our system  also to the global customers  we have this year. We have more demand right now from Asia, from Europe  we think can as well. So direction we are working on is reminding the direction we are working on mining applications. Over in the mines you have like a dust cave in or things like that. So both for operational and mining residue. Yeah, the rescue is probably your head to get into the mine. And then people realize this is useful every day. Exactly, exactly. So because you make sure similar stuff. Right. Always working in the dark environment and with particulate in the air, particularly in the air and the all the nursing they ask is actually the streaming functionalities the supervisor want to see, like what are they ill up to? Well, we have to. And also potentially the engineer on the top can tell the  the if it's unsafe. Yeah. How you fix stuff. Yeah. How would you stop. Right. And before a lot of mine using hormones and lay back out Collins  is like they're not a thing anymore, right? Yeah. Homeless because of it and because there are not too many AR glasses built for directions. They're not training options out there. So we are the options we do for fire for mines against actually comparable. Similar, right. You've built a technology platform for a particular purpose, which is fire,  but this platform is probably about the right size for a lot of other semi industrial uses or has a rotation has an industrial uses. That's awesome. So that's why right now in Canada we have a lot of movement into my money rescues to export market. And also we try to work with all gas company as well for inspections. So well initially we talk about industrial, industrial or something in the very beginning of our journey. I think right now we cannot come back to that special. Before we talk about  somebody, line or production line. Now we are more specific mining on gas  your environment with civility. Exactly. So the goal, the idea or conversation. Well to aim is that this is built for these are systems built for people working in dangerous environments. They want to get work done faster, want to stay there for a very long time. How this system can increase their efficiency, get get them tasks, get the job test done fast and then get out there. Right? Right. And the system is as rugged as it needs to be to work in these environments. Because we were built for fire, which is, you know, as I build in the cauldron of heat, right. You know, what kind of a worst environment is that for having to build hardware to survive in? And so that's a great way to pivot your technology from this beachhead you landed in and then expand into the adjacent markets. I think that's really important for hardware developers to realize that to get someone to believe your new idea, you probably have to be pretty specific in the market, right? And so the very particular problem very, very well. And then you realize if you do that you've accidentally built great technology. Exactly. Yeah. Amazing. Well, again, Enzo, thank you so much for being on the show,  everybody. This is the Hard tech podcast again. Your host DeAndre Haruka's my co-host Grant Chapman. Thank you for joining again, everyone. And Enzo, thank you so much for coming in. Very much. Fantastic. Good luck and see you guys next