The Hardtech Podcast - HoopDee Episode
Guest: Roxie Alsruhe, Founder & CEO, HoopDee
Hosts: Grant Chapman and Drew Westrick

Note: speaker diarization produced two channels only, so labels are approximate.

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[00:00:05] Speaker 2:
Welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:09] Speaker 1:
Hey everyone. Thanks for coming back to the Hard Tech podcast. I am Grant Chapman, your usual site host, but doing the main job today as DeAndre is out of the conference. But I've got Drew Westbrook joining today. Yeah buddy. Welcome. Happy to be back. Yeah it's been a hot minute. And I have the founder of hooped Roxy. Roxy  Altra Roxy. All right there we go. Good enough. Yeah. So Roxy here with us, founder of hoop.  But love for you to introduce yourself in the background of how you got to doing this hard versus journey because it wasn't straightforward. And and we'll dive into what what hooped actually is after. All right. Cool.  Yeah. So  we can rewind to just about two and a half years ago. And that's where this whole journey for me started. Had never done anything in hardware, had never done anything in manufacturing, but just had a problem. And that problem was wasting my wife's breast milk and he never dealt with it before. Were you about to embark on that chapter in your life as a partner to someone who is breastfeeding? My advice for you is never waste. Because you might lose your life or come pretty hard. Yeah, they work for that. Yes, it's emotional, it's physical. And, yeah, it was when we came home from the hospital with our first born and my wife, I filled up a bottle with an outer two of her breast milk, and the bottle was sitting on the coffee table. We were tired. We were overwhelmed. Like our our lives had just been rocked. And she said, we need to figure out when this expires. And I was like, oh, I didn't even think about that.  Which it was. Later, looking back through our camera roll, they did talk about it briefly during our baby class, but it meant nothing to me at the time, right? You're just thinking like we don't shake this, right? Yeah, yeah, a lot about, like, not shaking the baby. Not nearly as much about, like, you know, the expiration date on the milk, right? Yeah. Right. We just kind of just let it in one ear at the other. And  so I was like, yeah, let me just Google it. I don't know if this will be easy. Top results says CDC guidelines. Perfect. It's right there and click it. And this chart comes up in my head. Wanted to explain like I am too tired to do math. Which predicates you know. Section 3.2.4 salt your local health authority. Yeah. Was this on a leap year or not a leap year? Exactly. And so I don't want to go to in it because it's nauseating. But there were all these rules for whether it was fresh breast milk, whether it was fog, whether it was frozen, and where you're keeping it and whether the baby tip from it. I was like, you gotta be kidding me. So  a few days later, my wife was like, let's talk to some friends and see what they did. Just just a lot. And we got on the phone FaceTime with folks, and they were like, oh, well, you know, we took a lot of notes and it was pretty critical when you're when you're the caregiving is shared between most of the people, right? Not everyone's on the same page. So it was like a notebook and writing things down. And whenever our friends was taking tape and writing daytime and putting on bottles. But she was like, I definitely got dates from. Right.  And then, you know, we'd heard stories of bottles making their way to the back of the refrigerator and hanging out there for way too long. You see that there? And you're like, oh, I don't know. So we were like, okay. So we just started winging it and we were doing the dates on the bottles and everything. But I quickly found out that that just tells you one part of the whole story, which is when that bottle was built and I was guilty more than once taking a bottle out of the refrigerator. Just forget about it. Yep. On the counter? Yep. And on the nightstand, wherever and find it hours later, maybe even the next day. And I never I won't ever forget it. The first time that that happened. And my wife, I think she was so mad that she was so calm about it. That's the word. No, you know. No, they're just disappointed in you. They're not even mad. They're just disappointed what it was.  And I wish I could say that was the last time, but it was it was time number two. And I was like, I really gotta do something about this. And, you know, I was like, I rely on my phone to tell me when I have meetings, I rely on my phone to tell me what my wallet is, when to wake up more times than I want to wake up, basically how to live my life at this point. Sorry, we're just in that era, right? Yep.  I was like, why can't my phone just tell me what to do with my kids food when at this point in his life, that's the only thing he's consuming. He's only got two options. Is breast milk or baby. Formula one is very they're both very scarce  and one's really expensive. One has an emotional and physical brand. Yeah. Emotional expense versus actual cash expense. So, I started yeah. Kind of just developing this concept from there. And that's, that's how we got started with everything. And it's one of those things you need the data shared. Right? It's not like you can have a notebook that's just yours. This has to be a place where both parties can access the data. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I needed something that was intuitive for those, intuitive, quick and easy for those sleep deprived parents. Something to keep everybody on the same page so you didn't have to wake each other up and ask the questions.  And, yeah, I can kind of explain what that how I kind of started.  How's the how's the system worked today and was that the original plan or did this kind of iterate over time? So my, my favorite is like it's obvious it's a software solution. Right? Right. So. Well,  when I started kind of developing this idea, I was like, I was like, maybe it's a device for each bottle. But then thinking about the manufacturing, my dad, actually, my dad was the one who pointed that out because he had some experience with satellite engineering. He said, why don't you get into a lot of parts? Let's get really expensive. And I was like, yeah. And then it still doesn't really remind you if you're away from the bottle  and everything. And, and I was like, so it was, there was a lot of, there's a lot of information to capture to calculate expiration or not a lot of information, but there's a lot of things that you can know about it, a lot of a lot of data that you can collect. And I was like, it has to go into an app.  That's how everyone can stay on the same page with the software. Everyone has access to their own phones, and that comes with a keyboard and a screen and a timer and reminders that it automates all the back end of what you could make a bespoke piece of hardware for. But our phone does all the compute for us. Yeah, so  but I was like, but each bottle needs something. Something that makes it unique bottles and maybe you can identify it with. So the hardware idea that I started coming up with was just silicone rings that you would put on your bottles of a color coded system, but,  to sync them with the app, I was like, you could do. But that's kind of takes a little bit of time, because if you're doing it in the dark, I was like, I was getting annoying. So someone suggested NFC's and I was like, yeah, that's so simple and easy. So you could just tap that bottle to sync it. It's just like your credit card when you're paying. Exactly. So the NFC chips and some people are like, oh,  I don't know. I feel really weird about that. I'm like, there's a good chance there's one in your pocket right now. A couple six, seven, eight. Do you have so  it's that same type of chip that your, your credit card uses to tap to pay. Here we put it in these silicone groups to tap to sync. All right. Let's say tap tap blacks. So when you tap your you put a on all of your bottles of silicone. They stretch, they set. They fit on any size bottle. When you tap your phone to it, the app comes up and do a couple of entries. And they're basically you're saying, what is in it? Is it fresh grass milk? Is it thawed? Breast milk is making formula. And where are you keeping it? Is it it room temperature in the refrigerator, in the freezer. And  by default the date and time is the current day and time if you need to change that again. So that is enough information for the app to calculate its expiration of the CDC guidelines. And then you just have it again to sync it. And the bottle appears right there in your inventory. Everybody can see it. They can be all of your bottles, even track your bags, which is where you stash your frozen, your milk that you want to freeze. And and all the information is there and it's right at your fingertips. And, and I'm sure this wasn't the first iteration of the of the solution. Right? Yeah. So I started with my very first PowerPoint that I made, just the concept because I wasn't going to develop anything until like, I knew that people would take this idea, product market fit. Right. So it was ugly,  ugly PowerPoint that I was making like all hours of the night because I was just up. And,  it's the one benefit of that time. Well, I'm gonna be if I'm gonna be awake, I might as well start a company. I think my son was two weeks old at the time, and which I got a lot of splat. I got a lot of crap from my friends about. Then they were like, that's what you were doing when you had a newborn. Well, they sleep a lot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We were a friend of ours that might have had a laptop. Like with cat open, like in the delivery room. Yeah, just to talk about it a lot. So I just started sharing it with friends, and I was like, well, this is what I'm thinking. This is what would solve my problem. And so many of them just took to it. And it really this is genius. Just because it was a problem that they faced. Right? It's just delegating that thinking that remembering that reminding to technology when your brain capacity is so limited. But the benefit of that is, you know, I was I was kind of taking building it off of my own narrative and my own experience. But every family had different experiences with this, or they would do things a little bit differently. And I was like, well, I think I can integrate all these different techniques that people were doing, you know, into this idea.  So even before jumping in to grazing into things, I was like, okay, well, it seems like a universal problem because I'm dealing with my friends and dealing with it. Once I kind of take this to a greater scale, do more interviews and surveys and talk to clinicians and whatnot, and yeah, it turns out managing breast milk and baby, it was just a pain. And that's why it was in the class. You didn't listen, right. Like the cute fun stuff that you wanted or it's not the stuff that like scares you, right? It's not dangerous right now. Yeah. And then when you deal with it, it's terrible. Yeah. And then you're afraid of your partner who's going to take you out back if you're the one that ruined the breast milk, that's where the danger comes in. And so you've. And then most people that we like listen to and get the stories from our like they do the sexy thing first, which is prototype and like play with hardware. You approach this from the right way to do it. I have a problem. I'm going to make a PowerPoint and make sure everyone else feels like this is a problem. They also would like fix first, and I think that's how did you get to jump to that stage because like you tackle it the right way. And wasn't that an accident or from prior experience? I think that was accident because I didn't have everything at my fingertips. Got to start, you know, plugging away and things. So it was because yeah. 2:00 she had an idea before vibe coding was a thing right now. I mean, you know, you you just yelled, Claude, you know,  I was  at my morning, right? It was a lot easier to pop open the computer and just make it better because of the hours in the morning.  And,  yeah. And then once I was like, okay, well let's just kind of see how feasible real this is to get. Some daycare is like requiring, I think maybe all daycares require you to put, like, labels on your bottles so you can buy these things, Amazon that label your bottles. Yeah. They feel the cone stretchy bands. And then I could get the NFC's offline as well. And so I would just slip down behind. I put the  those bands around the bottles, the NFC is behind them and be like, okay, what I really want to be tapping. Yeah. Is this the UX that I like? Right, exactly. It was just like a real simple UX experiment.  And that was my initial prototype. But before we even got to that point, it was just images and asking, yep, that's awesome. So you did like the no hardware. Do you like this experience on paper? On a PowerPoint like this leaves this leads to this. And then you got to prototype everything on Amazon. Yeah. Like that's even easier than getting a 3D printer out or like any of the other things like you're like, oh no. Can I just do this? And then what was the how did you get your first tap experience on the app, or was that just truly reading the NFC code going into, you know, a numbered system? Yeah. So it was  I had it linking to like what, pages and then testing it out that way. And I was like as long as each bottle has its own page, especially in the app, like we know that it's unique and it's going to the the right information. That's awesome. That is so cool. And then you had to jump into the world. All right. Now I have an idea. The market seems to like it and now it gets fun and scary. So what was for you? What was that jump off point? Because you already have at this point, a prototype that kind of works, right? How long did you need to play with that before you jumped in? Like, all right, I forgot how to make this. Yeah, I would say you got fun. Scary, inexpensive. Yeah. All at once. That was mainly because I just didn't have the experience in the space.  But after that, like, I, I, I hadn't put in anything. I worked a long time, and even then it was college and it was just to get through my classes and whatnot. So I was like, I'm gonna outsource the outsource that to an agency to do the software. And then was working with a product designer for the hardware because I didn't have experience at all with that. And,  during that time, I because a lot of the work was delegated, I just kind of worked on the branding and like, what is what is the bigger vision of this whole company and everything? We can get into that later. But, yeah. So I was working with, with professionals to get that work done. And how did you fund those at sage you were at was that bootstrap? Was that friends and family? Was that did you go out and get a pre-seed like, you know, real venture market or what was the journey for you? Yes. At that point that was all bootstrapped. Okay. Then months down the line or a year down the line, was the money with friends and family. Awesome. Okay, so we're spending our own money and we're spooling people up. And it's probably really fun and scary, right? Because they're delivering new stuff to you, renders or sketches or wireframes of your design.  And then the reality of hardware comes in. How soon after working with the product developer, did you realize how long it might take to make one of these?  Well,  it was it was a lot of overpromising and under delivery. The expectations weren't set properly. And  everything took way longer than expected. Hardware development longer never happens.  It's very rare. I've never, ever experienced a vendor tell us a timeline that didn't work out. Yeah, the guilty parties might be in the room. Yeah. Right now, I think this is a universal truth. If you work with atoms  and and so you're, you know, you probably have your design pretty quick. And then it's how do you make it right. Yeah. It was having, having a design and then how do we make it. And then finding out it's going to cost more than originally. Yeah. For the prototypes or for the finished product. Like for tooling. Yeah. Yeah. For pretty much for everything for the tooling and everything. Because we had  basically different parts that were going to be glued to, to make, to make it work,  not to make it work, but maybe, maybe look different. Yeah.  And so we scaled scale to back to something just much more simpler looking and honestly looking looking back at it now and like, I think it looks better than what we originally had planned. Originally it was going to be the hoops were kind of kind of had like a license plate, but it wasn't really necessary. I was afraid when it stretched. If you put on a really stretchy bottle, the color name, because each, each hoop has the name of the color or the ID on there so that you can just read it and you can tell it is. And if you colorblind, you know what it is. My my fear was the name which stretches you stretch the bottle, but that ended up not being an issue. So we scaled it back. So it's just one piece of silicone? Yep. And laser etched in ink filled with the color name. And the NFC chip is embedded in it. It's over molded, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not a secondary glue operation is truly over molded in the silicone. I'm sure you guys found the the fun  thing that we did for kind of a similar product in this market. But you know, just the sizing of bottles and materials and stuff. Right. Because this is like plastic bottles and believe it or not, like glass bottles and all the different shapes, sizes, you know, some bow out, some bow in all of that. So like, how did you find kind of a, like a one size fits all kind of thing? Like again, was that something that you did like naturally. Like, oh yeah. Like we're going to buy a bunch and like test or like, how did you solve that problem? Yeah. So the manufacturers sent us samples of different silicone formulas, and  we my dad made a device so that we could stretch this thing over a thousand times, which is more than a typical user. It would be. So this is real validation hardware. Like you build a test piece of test equipment. That's amazing. And and so we, we just cranked that thing and we would stretch it and stretch it and stretch it. The silicone that was really easy to stretch and put on the bottles couldn't hold its shape. Yeah. It deformed. Yeah. So  the one that was right in the middle was perfect. So it's it's sperm. You know, you really got to you got to stretch it. But it always goes back to the original size which was important. And then the ring size like I'm guessing it's like small enough that it can fit like the smaller bottles and still like adhere, but then obviously have enough stretch to accommodate like the largest bottles. Yeah. So it was great. Yeah. We sourced a lot of all the, all the, popular bottles on the market and they don't really range too far in size, but we took the most narrow ones, which luckily were the ones that we were using most in our house and made sure that it could slide on there. And there wasn't anything more narrow than that. So, we were good. Yeah. Then going to find the biggest one to wrap around, and as long as you can stretch out and back in to get around it, you're good to go. All right. So you've, you know, you're we're going through manufacturing for the first time and finding vendors, getting close and realizing that, you know, it's all longer and more expensive. And then you get your first batch back. How did that show up? How did the first really, you know, first batch arrive on shore meet expectation, not meet expectation of the of like a molded one from a vendor of a sample or, I think because it was such a, it's such a simple piece of hardware, it was fairly satisfying. Excellent. Yeah. No. That's awesome. And so, so you got to do that and then then was it. Oh I have to figure to sell this now. Yeah pretty much yeah. And again it's a lot of what I had I if I knew what I know now you know what I spent that time doing. And with this particular product you know I'm, I am selling it to my target audience are people who have mostly never experienced a problem before because their first time expecting parents, and they're looking at a device that they've never seen before. You know, I'd say if I had created a stroller with a new feature, at least everyone knows what a stroller is right here. I'm starting from the ground up to explain what this hoop is, and why you put them on your bottles, and how it's going to save your life. Quite literally. Part of this, too, is it's kind of a double edged sword, right? Because it's like you're trying to explain to somebody that's never experienced this pain before, like, oh, this is actually going to be a challenge for you. But then it's also kind of like, yeah, you have a market that maybe like has already like had a kid and you're like, oh, like we, you know, we, we like winged it and like it all turned out okay. Which is probably a false sense of security. So like on both sides of it, it's kind of like trying to like paint this narrative of like this device will actually either like, save you from a lot of headaches or like, just actually make it life easier for you. Yeah. Well, what I have found so far is the second time parents, you we hear a lot of them like we got by before. Some of them are like, we're not going to play that game again. Play that game again because I want to sleep and I don't want you to wake me up or we're not gonna fight about this. You know? There's no confusion, no guesswork.  Everything is so simple and clear. If you're using the hoop system  and  the. But the other thing that I found is, is with second time parents or people who are already parents is we've done a couple of expos, in-person expos, and sometimes it's it's grandma to be or sister who's already had a kid who's just tagging along. And those women sell the product for me. Nice. They sell it for me  because I just explained what what it what this is what this does. And, you know, sister or grandma, to be there just like this is going to make your life so much easier. Well, and I think this is you have a product like market problem that you're solving that is very much convenient in a way that is much more so than pure fashion. Right? Like I have a litter robot for my cats. No one thing. Oh, but like, you still have to, like, get the poop out in the bag. I'm like, yes, but I do have to go in there and scoop it every time they go because it just collects it like it's a simple thing. Very expensive robot like. There are hundreds of dollars. Best money I've ever spent. Just because it's peace of mind, I know that I don't touch it every day anymore. It's this very small amount of overhead that I have to have mentally that is reduced. You're doing the same thing when you just here. Oh, how you write it down a notebook. How hard is that? But you're buying back overhead at the most important time in, in space. Right. Your brain cells are very limited in this moment. And it's really important to have them be used for the right stuff. People talk a lot about like the mental load. And I'll be the first to say, like in my 20s, I'm like, I have no idea what these people are on about, right? And, you know, start a business, maybe, you know, have a couple of kids and all of a sudden you're like, man, I know exactly what all these moms on YouTube are talking about, right? Like, this is very real, right? I don't want to choose what to wear. Right. Is is just like, is one more thing that like you're cognitively constantly being like, okay, like where is that? When is that whatever? And it's just like you can kind of just like  offload, just just drop that mental load just a little bit more or spend it somewhere else. Right. Like if you if it's focusing more time on your baby, then that's great or not worrying how long is this bottle than sitting out when I toss it? Or if we feed it to my baby.  And you just like there's no googling. Literally don't have to learn the guidelines in using the system. So it saves saves you a lot of time, a lot of mental. Well, and with the partner of like you're not having communicate with your partner like call them, hey, when did the green bottle go in here. You forgot to write it down. And that's just friction. Yeah, I have been out with friends and they've gotten that phone call from their husbands. Yeah. Oh, man. And then what's your guys's, like, sales model today? Is it mostly direct to consumer, like pop up shops, that kind of thing? Like,  how are your customers kind of finding you? Where are you selling the product today? So it's 100% DDC. And we sailed through our website and on Amazon. And then I go to expose and sell them in person. So that's the play for right now I think, because again, this is a product that no one has seen before, and there's a lot of awareness  and education that goes behind it. Retail is further down the line as I could. I could take a huge risk, and I think it would take a huge loss because people just walk, right.  Yeah. One is just how much risk you have to take is the quantities known before they've sold. The retail understands how much inventory you have to carry and how long it is till you get paid for that. Right. Like it is a  outside of the marketing risk. It is a just financial and sales risk. And I hear stories of people having a bad back, their products or it doesn't sell and then they're just blacklisted after that. Yeah. To have that on like, you know, the end of the aisle of the baby section of like a target. Right. But most people don't realize like what it takes to to make that happen. Right. In terms of, you know, they they basically want it where it's like we want massive amounts of inventory because like, if this sells well, we want like we want to be able to have product to sell. But then at the same time they're like, well, if it doesn't, we're also like not on the hook for all of that information. Right? So yeah, to your point, it's it's a huge deal. Yeah. And I'm still in the process of figuring out the messaging that stinks because again, like my biggest audience has never experienced this. And it's not something a lot of people talk about. And it sounds like you've captured this magic moment. You have this friend or peer who has gone through the problem, you know, explaining to someone who hasn't yet why this is important, like these sisters, these friends that go through these expos with you and, you know, how do you bottle that lightning, you know, how do you take one of those, you know, deliveries and put that on social media and capture those moments when you didn't stage it right? I know, and like, I hate the beginning of this and I'm like, oh, do we record people? When these experts are we get like such genuine, authentic responses from folks. And I don't want to ruin that with a camera around or like, can you repeat me? Yeah. But you also want a camera there, right? Just like influencers play a role like for marketing for you guys as well, because I kind of feel like that could be like a, I mean, a natural play. Like it's just, again, like somebody who's familiar, like explaining like what the product is and like how it works. Like, I'm guessing that just even, like visually understanding how the product works probably moves a lot. The needle for a lot of people, right? Yeah. So I'm venturing into that right now. We've just got on TikTok shop. Awesome. Been thinking about this since before our first expo. We did. So we just launched the product Thanksgiving of 2025. We did the first expo in March, so I think about TikTok shop and then and getting affiliates. You get a whole tone of affiliates, talk about your product and everything. It was after that expo when, well, at the expo, I felt like I was in middle school or selling candy out of a locker because, you know, it was people were coming to our booths. We explained the problem, our solution, and people like just to watch people's reaction when I could take, you know, there and say, okay, this model, I tap it and like, now you can see it on my phone and, you know, there's a little icon that matches the bottle and the coupon there. And it's, you know, matches the colors of everything. And people are just like, oh, wow.  But the conversion rate in person was just incredible. And it wasn't finding a conversion rate nearly like that on the internet. Right.  And so after that, I was like, I think TikTok shop might be the answer, getting all those affiliates to talk about it and to show people, because that's basically taking what we're doing in person and putting it in a digital digital platform. Well, it's the attention of why someone's listening to you matters almost as much as what you're showing, right? Like when you're in person at Expo, they're there to learn about baby stuff, like they came there with a purpose. They're already in the right mindset. If you just launch ads, people just black those out already, right? Like you're just swiping up. That's an ad. I'll skip that. But with the affiliate, you, these people have a following that chose to follow them and drink their Kool-Aid, follow their content, and it will actually be receptive to learning. Oh, what is this person, you know talking about today? And then they'll are open to receptive of like I have this problem to let's go do this. And then TikTok shop allows you to hit that instant gratification button of like, oh yeah, I want this click. And then it's just gone and it shows up in a couple of days. More potent marketing pieces, right? Because, I mean, even myself, I almost religiously, I feel like just ignore the bulk of ads now. Right. Whether that's, you know, I mean, I pay for YouTube premium because that's how much I hate ads. It's like even it goes up every month and like that will probably be the one. Like I'll cancel last,  right? It's like YouTube premium. It gets more expensive. But yeah, I mean it's like but at the same time it's like even the people that I do watch on there will have sponsored content. And I feel like even though on the one hand I'm like, I know this is sponsored content and I kind of hate it at the same time. Like I'm paying way more attention to that than any other ad, whether it's on a billboard or radio or online email, like, whatever. Right? So, I mean, I think there is like, I think if you find the right people who have the right following, following. Right. And I think part of it too is like whether or not they have genuine interest in the product as well. Right? Because again, I almost feel like if you're paying them to talk about the product, that's one thing. But if you kind of just like give them the product to try it out, or maybe it is like an affiliate link with kind of like a less, you know,  I just pay you to say nice things, like there's a little bit of upside there for them. I think that's definitely interesting play because, you know, they they get to have a genuine reaction to it. And there's downsides to that because sometimes I hate it. And they may say that, but I also just feel like it just again comes back to  that, you know, authenticity around the product and whether or not it can kind of hold its own. Right. Yeah, yeah. The, the, the structure that we have with the TikTok is, you know, capture the launch. A lot of them are just, you know, sampling. They're just getting the samples and they're going to test it out and try it and share what they think. But we, you know, just so early on in that phase, but we from a company that nobody knows about and a product nobody knows, there have been a really positive response to people that just want to try it out. Right? Yeah. And so you're again, we are what, six months into your like product launch journey. What has been the most surprising thing since launch good or bad either way. I think maybe this shouldn't have been surprising. The band is just how hard the messaging has been and constantly refining that. Yep, the good is. The line that resonates the most is me saying no one has to wake mom up to ask a rich bottle to feed the baby. Yep. Oh, that is awesome. No, that is great. And so, you know, as you go, you know, go forward in this journey. Of course, it's how do we go to market? How do we get the message down? What is on the horizon for for the business? Like, you know, you've got a really cool product that solves a real problem. I've conviction. That's why you're here today. I've conviction that you'll you'll get this thing continuing to go up to the right. What does this product enable you to do? I know you and I chatted briefly when we were talking about this episode. Like is what does hardware mean for you in this company? Is it more hardware? Is the hardware unlock things in the future? The hardware is going to unlock things in the future. And I think at the end of the day, my app is the greatest asset that I will have. You know, that is your central command center right now. It's just with bottles and bags of milk and organizing that and everything. But I think we can expand the apps feature. I mean, this is our plan will span the app feature features. So it's doing more than that. There's there are a ton of baby tracker apps out there. Literally you enter when your baby eats poops fees. Yep. Sleeps wakes up. Exactly. None of those are tracking your, your bottles or your bags, essentially. Like your entire story or stash of milk. Integrate those things in. And I think we can expand the app also from like pregnancy through pre-K, but continuing to develop hardware that just simplifies things. I like this whole concept of like the physical like tab feature, right? Because I think you see a lot of people indexing on this to like, even have these things. Like there's one called like brick where like you physically tap your phone and it like  locks you out of like certain features. But I don't know, there's just like something. Also, I think that's really like neat and visceral about that. And I just wonder, like even when you were talking about like the different like life functions and stuff, but it's like, you know, if you kind of  had,  you know, one of your devices, like near where you change, baby, and it's like you want to know when the last time you changed them. It's like tap stuff like that, right? So I won't go. I won't, won't ruin all the ideas. Right. But but I do. I think that where I want to get on my soapbox for a moment is, I think, and I'm very biased here because we're, we're the hardware business. Listening to the hard tech podcast, you probably agree, but I do think that it's never been easier to the good and to the bad to now make a mobile app or a SaaS company or a software only business. And I see increasingly that it's like the folks that have some hardware component have some stickiness component there, right? Or an ecosystem or going to be the ones I think that will build that, that moat. Right. Because again, if it's just a mobile app, let's be honest, in today's world, you've now done years worth of development. You've created this market. You know, maybe there's some fear strategy or you know,  how you get paid. Somebody else can basically come in, rip your app in a weekend and have the exact same thing. And it's maybe not just them, but it's ten more. They're going to look and feel the exact same way, right? But if your app is designed to like, work with your, you know, your hardware, the something that people physically own, that's a level of by and it's a level of like stickiness. I think that the people that now own some level of like things that you physically interact with, whether it's your phone or your computer or your TV or your car or whatever, like those are all access points then to now build a software ecosystem around them, right? Yeah. So I can I can I 100% agree with you and I can tell you why. Yes. So the our app development got done months before product arrived, before we finish manufacturing and everything. So I just I had an app and I decided to release that app even though I didn't have products. So anytime you fill up a freezer storage bag of milk, the app will tell you to write a number on that bag. So we go from with bottles. It's a color coded system with remote bags. It's in the ring system, and the reason why I kept it that way is because, like, you're gonna run in the colors. We are. So we're on baby number two now, is it the cyan honey or the or the or the seafoam green? Baby? Number two. He's almost five months old, and we have over 400 bags of milk in our freezers and my parents freezers. Because you ran a freezers up, we ran out of real estate. So it would just be so, so, so, so many bags. So,  we were like, I was like, well, if the app tells you to write a number on your bag, like, people could kind of hack that and do the same things with their models. So I was like, let's, let's do that. Yeah, let's do that. Let's just let people download the app and the app if they're not using our product. But you know what he is because it doesn't exist yet.  The app's going to say, write this number on your bottle or write this number on your bag. And and then it'll have it track that way. And what I found was it was a good way to introduce the app and get totally feedback, 100%. And I was like, we want to do as much early figuring out before the hardware is here. Exactly. Iron out the bugs, see if people like the workflows. I mean, user interface design honestly, is like it's not easy. Best laid plans rarely stand up to the first battle, right? With your customers.  And what? I found out  a benefit to that. So it's free and no product required. It follows CDC guidelines which would support every every clinician. And America is going to tell you to follow. So hospitals and practices were more willing to be like, oh, if you have postcards on your app and the QR code like them in our office, or we'll put them in. So it's like, good. And then I could get more people using the app, but just an app isn't that sexy, right? So now that we have product, they have also I love freemium models to though, right? Because it's like I think at the end of the day, it's like you're still offering people that, you know, want some basic level of help with this, the ability to go get that. And it doesn't cost them anything to do it right. But, you know, they now have more of an awareness for your brand, more of an awareness about, like the problem you're solving and can maybe again, their  parents that are, you know, strapped to the nines in the first kid and the second one rolls around and you're like, you know what? Like, you'd be pretty cool if we didn't have to write numbers down and we could just, you know, buy that. Right. So yeah. So my goal was to always keep the app free or always have a premium journal. Today it's a low barrier entry to get folks in. And then if they want to buy into,  a more automated process, much easier than they can get the hardware, because that's what the hoops do. It automates the process. It makes everything smooth so much quicker. One just user experience. I think this is this is the thing that  most people undervalue when they're building their first product, but really get on their second or third is there's these like magic moments. That's 3% different of the workflow that makes the users love it and talk about it, because we're getting way more app downloads now with sales. Sure. When we just had a free app. Yeah. Well, and I think it's so neat that it is, you know, you were able to launch this product the way that you were like friends and family like just, you know, keep it small and you're going to start building upon that. Whether you want to go scale adventure or product product with revenue and profit. And you didn't have to jump all the way in the deep end, right? You built this experience that someone can get Ahold of, and you can get it out there as fast as possible and start expanding, because I think, you know, when you were and I were talking earlier, between the data you're collecting to both make people's lives better and what else you can do in the future with hardware, you're building something that's going to be bigger than what? Who is today? Yeah. And is that is that part of the exciting part going forward, or is that a second bite of the apple going back into into development, both exciting and scary. That's the part that I like to get out of market and go back and dev oh that's awesome. I mean the marketing, I don't mind as much. We need someone to run the Morris lathe back there. I mean, are you interested? Yeah, we like going on camera every day. Hey, guys. Oh that's awesome. Well, in that tease in the in my question that that I've got is, you know, you are now a founder on purpose or an accident, but you're here.  How have you enjoyed wearing all of the hats? Right. Because that's the one unique thing. You can always go work for someone else and wear a few hats or like one very particular hat. But when you're a founder day one, you get all of them. Janitor, you know, chief evangelist, officer, finance hat to know how long you wear it. That's what you do, right?  You know. And what is it? What it surprised you about, like the things you've really enjoyed doing and what are the things you're like, man, I can't wait till we grow in scale and can find someone who's an expert at this thing. I think because I have done since graduating from college, did a lot of business stuff and would do a lot of financial systems. So I was like, that's my bread and butter. I got that under my belt. That's the first thing I wanted. I think most business owners would have. Yeah, yeah, well, we acquired a Sean and he does all of that for us now. Oh, man. I need somebody to drive QuickBooks for you. Yeah, yeah.  So.  But it is the innovative just the coming up with ideas that I love. And, you know, that that, Yeah, that's that's the thing that keeps me the most exciting going. And. Yeah, other than seeing people's reactions like that, that is that is priceless. Yeah. No, that's it's the our it's why we're in hardware is you build something that you can physically give to someone and see them use. Yeah. I mean people love they love to touch. They love to to see it and just, you know,  see what you have created. Yeah. And you have, like, a really fun brand and color image. I mean, you got some product here if you want to pull up on camera like this is, you know, is this how did you come up with your brand? Did you do this? Do you hire an agency? So I came up with it actually. And so we have three variants of our hoops. And the reason for that is that you can color code up to 18 models in your household. So there's almost like a collectible element to it, right? Like, you know, if you start out with like the rainbow pack and you're like, I mean, you know, it's fall, maybe you need to invest in the Earth pack, pack. So  if you're not using that many bottles, you could just get one pack. What we have found is we get repeat customers because they just like, let's try it out. And then like our kids using more bottles. Yeah. So  as I mentioned, I've got a five month old since day one. We've been using all three packs in our household between once in the refrigerator, what's in the sick, what's on the drying rack? It's just constantly premium feel and like just I love just the like it's it's more substantial than you would think. Right? Because like, I, I won't lie. Like, when I got on your website, you know, when you're coming on the podcast, I was like, oh, okay. It's like rubber bands for your bottle with an NFC like, but like these are like, no, I know. And these are like proper like, you know, they got some real beef to them. Yeah. So is this laser etched is what you said. That's incredible. So that soft touch. Yeah the silicone is I mean sometimes it can either be like almost like to slippery or to dry, but it's just like right in the middle, like, so digging in the hardware side, you laser etched this. So you only needed one tool. Is that right? So yeah. Explain for everyone listening. Like that's really clever. So you have one mold that makes all of the hoops you laser. It's the colors in secondary process. But tooling is expensive. And then you can just ink it. Yeah, yeah.  Oh. So jumping back to the branding,  I just because I was in the thick of it when I was coming up with this idea, and I think it kind of like helped me. I was making my ugly PowerPoint. It was like constantly reiterating because, like, someone would say something or I would have an idea and I'm like, you're right. And I would just, you know, be making these little mascots so ugly and, you know, eventually came into this cute little milk drop that we had. That's great. But I was like, with the hula hoop. Yeah. I was like, you know, sometimes you just need a little, like, Genie from Aladdin. Or one of my friends likes to say Clippy. Yep. From windows XP. Yeah, yeah. Just like kind of be there for you when you're in the thick of it and things kind of suck. And so I just imagine this little, this little character which became a milk drop,  you know, smiling and hula hooping is just like, it's fair to cheer you on. So he he pops up or she and it doesn't it doesn't drop. Yeah. It pops up in the app and it's like, oh, good. Like, you finish that bottle or you wash that bottle and smiling or, or you've logged a hundred bottles or hit some milestones.  I love that we're bringing that like, whimsical to like branding a little bit. Right? Like, I feel like we took a detour at some point where it was like, you know, you can only like everything has to be white or black or silver or cyberpunk. Yeah, corporate blue or some shade of corporate blue. And, you know, very, you know, you know, sanitized mural. Right. But like, I, I love, I love whimsical I think, I think Gen Z is responsible for that. And I think because they didn't experience the 90s. Right. You did man. Yeah. So I was I you probably but like bring the 90s back I think I think everybody's happy I miss my see through electronics that are whimsical colors. That's all I want was you might not be familiar because this was very girl centric brand. Lisa Frank I lived and died for Lisa Frank and it was stationery that was oh yeah, crazy out of this. I love it. And it had like crazy colors like this.  And because it was a color coded system, I was like, I'm just gonna go all in. Yeah, I think we're ready to like, part with millennial gray. Like, I think we've lived with it long enough that we're like, you know what? Like, maybe some color in my life would be okay. Yeah. Oh that's awesome. So as we wrap up here, do you have any advice for aspiring or just getting started? Hardware founders.  You know that you you wish someone might have told you a year or 2 or 3 ago? Yeah. Everything's going to take longer. Most likely take longer. Have reserves in your bank accounts if you're, you know, regardless of which way you're funding it or doing anything that as much as you can bootstrap, that's great. But I realize you might have to outsource,  and constantly, constantly ask for feedback. Sometimes it is uncomfortable, sometimes you don't hear what you want to hear, but  the more feedback you get, the better. You know? Sometimes things are very polarizing. Some people say they like something and hate something and you're like, okay, well, you know, it works for a part of the population. Go with the right thing. Sometimes polarizing is good because it defines it like where the next direction is. If you are like, oh, it's okay, what's wrong with it? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So just, you know, put yourself out there and just you gotta have thick skin. Yeah, yeah. And we always like to say this here at class board. Like your idea can get eviscerated and doesn't diminish you. You should be proud when your idea either lives or dies because you learned the next step. And that's the thing that you have to like as an entrepreneur. And for us, and hardware development, you have to attach your happiness to is moving forward, not whether it was your first good idea or your 100th idea. That was good. It is. You know, that process. Like, I love getting feedback. It's like, nope, that will never work like perfect. We'll never try that again. And then you're moving faster and early stage both engineers here, whether early in their career or early at glass board, but later in their career, have a really hard time adapting to that, you know, diversity of like, oh no, like I actually don't care if your ideas are right or wrong. I want you to move fast with ideas and get feedback. And I think that's that lesson you're trying to express is insanely important for anyone in hardware, because unlike software, you can just keep pivoting, right? You have to make calls and hardware and they are permanent. You have bought Tulane, you have inventory,  and these are the things that live with you forever. So getting that feedback early and making sure you get it divisive, like make sure no, don't tell me it's a six out of ten. Like I need you to tell me there's a nines and tens or twos and what's a two and how do I fix it? Yeah. Cool. Well, no. Thank you so much for coming on today. Amazing story. Honestly, I mean, many of the things that you have said, I think both Grant and I agree with and like we totally did not pay you to say those things. I think that it will take longer, have reserves, that's all things that I mean, yeah, we have to coach  get on. You know, on, on on your, on your box and yell from the rooftops right about that. So amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show. This is great. Awesome. We'll catch you guys all next time. Thanks for listening.