S3 • E6 Schwartz === Matt Kosterman: Hi, it's Matt, and I'm back with another episode of The Permission Slip. Today, I am with Amber Renee, a dear friend who I've known for, gosh, almost five years. Amber Reneé: Has it been only five years? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 'cause I moved down here f- just a little over five years ago. I mean, almost exactly five years. Amber Reneé: Wow. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Feels like way longer. Matt Kosterman: Way longer. I mean, I think we've probably traveled these realms- I think so ... before. So Amber's a Chicago-based, uh, healing artist and a licensed massage therapist. That's how I originally found her. And she spent more than 20 years in this field. Um, and, and beyond, way beyond the massage therapy, uh, exploring body work, intuition, and, uh, the more mysterious aspects of being human. Matt Kosterman: So Amber, thanks for being here. She came to my house today. Mm. It's so fun to be in person. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Always love hanging at your house. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. We've had some good times here. We've had some interesting times. Mm-hmm. We, uh ... Amber and I sat together for a number of people with, uh, psychedelic journeys, mostly, mostly MDMA, a little bit of mushroom- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: people. A Amber Reneé: little bit of LSD. Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was talking about that one y- or the other day. Like, that's ... That is not one I ever wanna Amber Reneé: It's, it's a weird one to sit for- So long ... people. So long. It's such a long time, yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Amber Reneé: But it was, um, good learning experience. Matt Kosterman: Good learning. I learned that I don't wanna do it. Matt Kosterman: I learned that- ... you really need to come fully energized, 'cause I was very depleted when I went into that. Mm-hmm. I had been traveling. So yeah, so Amber and I met at ... She was ... Her, her massage, her studio was around the corner. I think I must have just passed it and been like, "I need a massage," 'cause I always did back then. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, started regaling her with my tales of psychedelic experiences and, and we got to be friends and, uh- And Amber Reneé: now here we are ... Matt Kosterman: and here we are. So tell us about your work. How'd you get into this? You had a bit of an interesting upbringing out in Portland? Amber Reneé: Yes. Oregon? I, I grew up in Portland, Oregon, and I was raised in a Mormon home and always had a lot of conflict within me in that, um, religion. Amber Reneé: I never really bought into it, and, um, so it caused a lot of mental and emotional turmoil for me that then eventually manifested into chronic pain and- Mm ... depression and, um, I ended up not going to college. I was, like, set to go to college after high school, and just at the last minute had this feeling, um, of just like, "This isn't for me." Amber Reneé: I was gonna go into journalism, 'cause that's what I was very involved in that all through high school, and, um- There was, um, there was, yeah, just, uh, a lot of, um, brain fog and depression and just knowing that that wasn't the path for me. Matt Kosterman: The journalism. Amber Reneé: The journalism. ' Matt Kosterman: Cause you actually, I mean, you said chronic pain. Matt Kosterman: Didn't you actually end up scoliotic? Like, you had some s- Amber Reneé: Yes, I have scoliosis ... Matt Kosterman: scoliosis of the spine. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. And, um, I had also had a, a few, like, serious injuries as a child just from being a kid. Matt Kosterman: From... Uh-huh. Amber Reneé: Um, falling off my bike and stuff like that. And so after a few months of being just deep in that brain fog and not knowing what to do, my aunt, um, suggested maybe I should go to cosmetology school. Amber Reneé: So that's what I ended up doing, and it slowly led me to where I am today. I started off doing aesthetics and nails. Okay. But it was very clear soon into that career that people were coming to me for the touch I had. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I had a natural ability to really ground people with touch and massage, and I loved doing it. Amber Reneé: And, um- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I can't see you really being into being a nail tech or Amber Reneé: being like- I was not. It was not a natural place for me. Doesn't fit. It was... No, it... When I started working in spas, I was looking at the massage therapists and being like, "Oh, they get to go into a dark room for a whole hour and not talk?" Amber Reneé: "They don't have to sell products to people?" Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Amber Reneé: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that was very appealing to me. Yeah. And, um, as soon as I started massage school, the, it was, you know, my whole life changed. Massage school just opened up so much for me as far as, like, um, a deep understanding of spirituality and the correlations between emotions and pain and trauma and pain. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: And, um, that's when I was first introduced to Reiki. I'd never heard of Reiki before I started massage school. And, um, it still was, like, 10 years, I think, before I actually got into Reiki from there. And that Matt Kosterman: was probably, I mean, sort of, uh, still early in Reiki's sort of spread. Amber Reneé: Maybe. Right? Matt Kosterman: I Amber Reneé: mean, I think- Yeah Amber Reneé: it was only maybe- I mean, it's had, it's had many iterations. I think it got pretty popular in the '90s. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, okay. Amber Reneé: Um, but not to the extent that it is now. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. ' Amber Reneé: Cause it's basically, like, mainstream now. Matt Kosterman: Pretty much. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Um, so yeah, massage therapy eventually led me into energy work and, um- Yeah. That- Yeah Amber Reneé: brought me to shamanic tools, um, guided inner journeying, and- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Amber Reneé: yeah ... psychedelics and all that stuff. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Amber's actually the, my bridge to Renee McKenna- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: which is the, the whole genesis of this podcast was as a result of a session with Renee. She was the first episode, and so- Amber Reneé: Yeah Matt Kosterman: yeah, she- I Amber Reneé: love Renee so much ... Matt Kosterman: she's so great. Yeah. We, uh, we did, I did a, a, I was in a half of the year-long apprenticeship before I realized it really wasn't aligned, but- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... uh. Yeah, I did two years Matt Kosterman: mentorship with her. The mentorships. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So yeah, so talk about, um, like this intersection of, you know, k- my, my journey was thinking that I had done a bunch of therapy, and I was fixed, and my body was just messed up, and it needed to be fixed. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And so what, what, what do you see as this intersection of, you know, mind, body, emotion? You know, people probably... A- and how do people come to you? What, you know, what is the typical presentation and... Amber Reneé: Um, the most common presentation that clients come to me for is usually when they're burned out or they've tried a bunch of other things, um, to help with their depression, with their chronic pain, with their anxiety. Amber Reneé: I think depression and anxiety are two of the most common- Hmm ... um, issues that people have when they come to me besides just, like, body pain. Um, but I don't think that we can separate those things. Hmm. They're all so intrinsically connected to the way that we move through the world and the way that we feel in our bodies. Amber Reneé: Um, and I think that that's, uh, one of the things that Western medicine really misses- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Amber Reneé: and why people end up needing to come to a practitioner like me after exhausting all of their other options in the Western medicine world, because Western medicine compartmentalizes all that stuff. Yeah. And it'll just look at these very specific list of symptoms and then try to treat those symptoms, never looking for the root cause. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I hear this over and over again from the people. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yeah. It's, there, there is always an emotional spiritual root to whatever ails us, um, even injuries, which, you know, that's a whole other, like- Yeah ... metaphysical concept. But, um, I think that our spiritual and, uh, emotional energetics- Kind of move our pain and our, uh, chronic ailments and our chronic moods. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: Um, and then of course, like, our decisions, the way we make decisions, uh, in our lives. Matt Kosterman: Well, 'cause it's gonna influence that. I mean, you, I, I made much worse decisions when I was in pain 'cause- Amber Reneé: Right ... Matt Kosterman: you just don't have the energy to really c- consider it, to think about it. Amber Reneé: Right. Yes. Matt Kosterman: Um, yeah, and we talked, I, my last guest, last couple guests, we were talking about one of them, uh, M- Marissa, she had a broken tibia when she went into... Matt Kosterman: She'd been on crutches for four weeks when she went into an ayahuasca journey in Costa Rica, and she had the experience of regrowing her tibia during that journey, and when she came out, she didn't need crutches anymore, and the X-ray was clean. Amber Reneé: That's amazing. I've heard several stories like that. Yeah. Um, i- it's incredible the way that sometimes all it takes is this kind of energetic, uh, w- I guess you could kind of call it an analogy that your imagination shows you. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: Um, but that I would argue is actually really happening in the non-physical aspects of our bodies- Yeah ... in experiences like hers. Matt Kosterman: Especially when you get the ego out of the way. Y- yeah. Amber Reneé: The, the- Which, uh, that's a, you know, the ego Needs to just find a way to be, like, more on the same level as the rest- Yeah Amber Reneé: of, uh, our different parts. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I Matt Kosterman: mean, I equate sort of the ego with the mind, with the brain, and it's, you know, often said in spiritual traditions that, you know, it's a, it's a te- it's a wonderful mas- uh, servant, it's a terrible master. Amber Reneé: Yes. Yes. Matt Kosterman: Like, it's how do we ... And it's how do you get one's body comfortable enough to trust something other than this thing that has been- Right Matt Kosterman: leading it? Amber Reneé: Right. And that's what the inner journey work that Renee taught me- Yeah ... taught us ... Matt Kosterman: talk Amber Reneé: to me about Matt Kosterman: that. Yeah. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Um, and- The Matt Kosterman: shamanic stuff ... Amber Reneé: the shamanic stuff. Um, it's, it's really about retraining the mind and the imagination to, uh, be more compatible with each other- Mm-hmm ... rather than the mind trying to dominate the imagination. Amber Reneé: And when I say imagination, I do mean, like, the parts of us that just like to make things up and be creative, but it's also the heart. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I kind of, um, equate the imagination and the heart together because I think that our imagination is the mechanism that our heart uses to communicate. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Um, and it's also the bridge, our imagination is also the bridge between our physical experience and non-physical reality. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's like the way spirit can communicate to us, which you could argue the heart and spirit, the heart is also a bridge to spirit. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I mean, where, u- uh, ultimately, where does it stop and start? It doesn't. Yeah. It's all, it's all- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: contiguous. But even you, you go to the, The Wizard of Oz, you know, like, you, you had the power all along, like- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: like, we are magical. Amber Reneé: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And, and we've been told that we're not. Amber Reneé: Right. And- Which I think is what has allowed the mind or the ego to become such a dominant force in all of us, is just, like, centuries of conditioning- Matt Kosterman: Right ... Amber Reneé: around this. And wherever that conditioning started in our historical past, I think that, you know, that there was people who knew that they couldn't control large- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: groups if Those people were deeply connected to their heart energy and to their imagination, and, you know, it, it ultimately was a, a way to control- To Matt Kosterman: control ... Amber Reneé: the population. Matt Kosterman: And, and, you know, and I think, you know, while we can, a- and I do beat, beat it up and, and say, "Why are we doing..." I mean, we, we all... Like, humanity chose it. Matt Kosterman: Like, we, we learned through it. Right. It was a period of time, and, and I just think it's, it doesn't mean we have to keep doing it. Amber Reneé: Right. Yeah. There, Matt Kosterman: and we're- And we don't have to condemn it, but- Amber Reneé: Mm, Matt Kosterman: no ... it, it was what it was, and now it's this new thing- Mm-hmm ... that's available. Amber Reneé: And we had to go through that because there's something about evolution. Amber Reneé: We were just talking about this- Yeah ... before we started, that the process is the whole reason why we're here. And so, I mean, even in these long-term, um, ways of looking at it, like long, centuries long- Yeah, yeah ... historical experiences that humanity has gone through, that that process is part of our evolution, and it's like a necessary part of humanity's spiral upward. Matt Kosterman: 100%. Amber Reneé: And we're totally at a, like, precipice right now. Yes, we Matt Kosterman: are. Amber Reneé: Like, it's so intense. It's, it's amazing. It's actually... When you can kind of pull yourself out of the, um, it, the- The Matt Kosterman: vortex ... Amber Reneé: the vortex of- ... the experience that we're going through- Yeah ... on this planet right now and kind of be able to look at it from a more neutral perspective, like, we're really standing on the edge of, like- Anything could happen. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Anything is possible. And I, I try so hard to, to navigate away from doomerism- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Amber Reneé: because we have so much potential to s- go in a completely different direction, something totally unprecedented. Mm-hmm. And there's so much awakening happening within humanity at this time that I choose to believe that something that we've never experienced before could be right on the other side of the horizon. Amber Reneé: Yeah, right Matt Kosterman: around the Amber Reneé: corner. Just right around the corner. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, I concur. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And, and, and so your work with people is helping them... So talk about how you work. Like, so y- somebody comes to you typ- I mean, are they s- coming to you as a massage therapist initially? Yeah, a lot of them. Is that how they're generally referred to you? Amber Reneé: Yeah, I... My most popular service is the Reiki massage combo. Reiki Matt Kosterman: massage combo. Amber Reneé: So that is how people come in. It's often 'cause they need to relax. They're, uh, uh... It's very, um, common for people to tell me that their talk therapist suggested they try Reiki. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that was who first suggested it for me, and- Amber Reneé: Yeah Matt Kosterman: I, I just laid there, and this was years ago, and, and I was up in Wilmette, I think, in a lovely home, and she did her thing. I fell asleep 'cause I always do. Mm-hmm. And, uh, she's like, "Yeah, I saw white light." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. Well-" ... hmm. Amber Reneé: What does that Matt Kosterman: mean? Didn't feel near death, but I... So, you know, I was like, "Whatever." Matt Kosterman: So but talk about Rei- what is Reiki? Amber Reneé: So Reiki is universal life force energy. That's literally what the word means. It's a Japanese word- Mm-hmm ... translates to mean that. And, um- When I'm doing Reiki, all I'm doing is allowing my body to be like a conduit- Mm-hmm ... or like a copper wire for life force energy to be concentrated through me and to the recipient. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you're not doing it. Amber Reneé: Not doing anything- It's like, yeah ... except for just getting out of the way- Uh-huh ... and like being a, a clear channel or like a hollow bone- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Amber Reneé: for this energy to cleanly move through. You, you... I always say you can think of it like jumper cables for a car. Matt Kosterman: Oh, nice. Amber Reneé: And so the, the recipient is like the battery, and I'm like jumper cables. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. And, um, when you receive this influx of life force energy, you know, life force energy is very nourishing, as you can imagine. It's the same energy that makes a seed sprout or an embryo grow, and it just is like a rush of life-giving energy that moves through your body. And you can kind of think of it like pushing water through a kink in a hose- Okay Amber Reneé: where it just like opens up and everything can flow, and that usually makes the recipient's nervous system go into parasympathetic- Mm-hmm ... rest and digest, and that's where the body just naturally heals. So I'm just kind of being a middle man for the intelligence of the body and the intelligence of the life force to have a nice little conversation. Amber Reneé: Have Matt Kosterman: a talk, yeah. Amber Reneé: And, um, the, the life force energy will just go wherever the body needs it to go. It'll never take too much. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: Um, so- Matt Kosterman: Can't hurt anybody with it. Amber Reneé: No. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: Um, it's, it's really just pure life-giving energy, that you're just getting a nice boost of that. But then I was lucky enough to have been taught by my Reiki teacher, um, another level that's more like psychic Reiki. Amber Reneé: So the basic, uh, basics of Reiki is just the practitioner gets out of the way and gives you a boost of life force energy. Okay. But then I also open my awareness to be able to pay attention to that conversation- Mm-hmm ... that the body and the life force energy are having with each other. So then I can kind of pull out interesting insights, um, about where I might notice the Reiki is seems to be going in the body or what the body might be- communicating when it has this opportunity to be heard more clearly. Amber Reneé: And- Matt Kosterman: And you also get visuals. I know you were always- Mm-hmm ... when I would, you know, when I get massages from you, and you're like, "And I'm seeing this," and which I think is so cool 'cause I'm aphantasic. I don't see shit when I close my eyes. Yeah. I'm like, "You, you what?" Well, Amber Reneé: and that's another thing that I love to teach people about, though, is that just because you don't see things doesn't mean you won't get the same type of information. Amber Reneé: You just have to- It's just different. Yeah ... yeah, you just have to learn how your imagination works 'cause- Yeah ... you know? But at Matt Kosterman: the, at the time, it was... I, I didn't really know that, and I'm like, "Well, I wanna see things." "Why don't I see pictures?" And Amber Reneé: I do. I always use that language, "I see," just because it's, like, the easiest language to use. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. But I'm not always seeing movies or images in my head. Okay. A lot of the time, it is just kind of an impression. A knowing. Or for me, I get audio or auditory, you know? So it's like I hear words and phrases in my mind. Matt Kosterman: In your mind, yeah. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: So, um, so yeah. Matt Kosterman: Which, yeah, and I've had that experience. Matt Kosterman: I, when I, I've worked on people with some body work over the years. Mm-hmm. And I was working on, you know, one woman, and, and was, like, on her abdomen doing myofascial stuff. And I said, "You know," I said, "I think..." And I was just like, I heard like... I didn't know this. Uh, we didn't have this discussion at all. I said, "Your h- you wanna have another baby, and your husband doesn't." Matt Kosterman: She's like, "Yeah. Oh, it's that." Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: It, it's still that thing. Amber Reneé: Yep. Matt Kosterman: You know, another woman, I was working on her, on her... She came in for maybe back pain, but I was guided to work on her calves. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And I'm like, "You need to..." Like, I'm hearing, like, you need to let the brakes off 'cause the calves are the brakes for the body, right? Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Energetically. And she's like, "Oh, yeah, you're right." And then- Yeah ... and then s- like, things really took off for her af- after that Amber Reneé: Yeah, and that's m- where... When I first started practicing reiki, I was practicing in a spa. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amber Reneé: And they were the ones who- Oh, you're at Ayu, right? ... hooked me up with my reiki teacher. Amber Reneé: Yes. Yeah, yeah. At Ayu Spa. Right, right. Name drop. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Um, I love that place. Yeah. Um, and they had me practicing reiki, like, immediately. I, I- Oh ... did my reiki level one training, and they were like, "Great, now you can start working on clients." I was like, "Ah, I don't know what I'm doing." But I did it, and I always had to have some feedback to give to the clients 'cause that was part of the protocol at the spa. Amber Reneé: Okay. So I was just like, you know, "Well, whatever's coming up in my imagination, I guess I'm gonna tell them." And, like, I remember in those first few months having experiences where it was like- You know, oh, I, I kept seeing all these different kinds of food floating around you. Just like- Ah ... ridiculous things that i- i- before I would say them, you know, my m- my self-critical mind- Yeah, yeah, yeah Amber Reneé: would be like, "This is so dumb." You're, you're Matt Kosterman: crazy. " Amber Reneé: You're gonna sound ridiculous." But I would say it, and, like, 100% of the time would get validated in some way, where it's like, I remember that person was like, "Oh yeah, I've been actually, like, trying to decide, like, a new diet to go on-" Ah ... "with this, like, workout regimen that I'm doing, and I can't figure out what's best for me." Amber Reneé: And, you know, just things like that- Yeah, yeah ... Matt Kosterman: where- Yeah ... Amber Reneé: um, th- I, uh, I often encourage my, like, Reiki students and stuff to just start, like, listening and trusting, and just... It doesn't really matter if it sounds ridiculous. You don't have to try to figure out what it means. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: it doesn't have to make sense. Amber Reneé: Exactly. Yeah. It doesn't have to make sense. Rene. I'm sorry. Rene. Matt Kosterman: Rene's always said, whatever, yeah, th- sense, feel, or imagine. Mm-hmm. Right? It- Amber Reneé: Yeah, and nothing needs to make sense right now. It doesn't. We can make sense of it later. That's, um, one of my favorite little phrases that Rene taught Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Amber Reneé: yeah, yeah Amber Reneé: um, that I use all the time. That's... It's helpful for getting the ego out of the way so that the imagination- Yeah ... can just be open. ' Matt Kosterman: Cause we wanna judge it. The ego wants to judge everything that comes through, yeah. Amber Reneé: Yes. It wants to judge it. For g- good, good, bad. It wants to make sense of it. It wants to try to correlate it with other things that have happened to you in the past, and, like, starts to come up with stories. Amber Reneé: Yeah. And the stories totally keep us hooked in the patterns that we're trying to unravel ourselves from most of the time. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: And not to say that stories can be very, um, valuable for healing. Sometimes it's helpful to, to, um- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Amber Reneé: uncover and dig up stories. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. What, what is the story, and then- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: and it ta- and then but then it gives them discernment, like how, you know. Amber Reneé: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: Like, uh, who's the woman? You know, is that, what's, is that true? Not Brene Brown, the other one, the work. Katie B- Byron Katie. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I don't know if you've ever read any Byron Katie. I- But it's- ... Amber Reneé: know of her, but no, I haven't ... Matt Kosterman: yeah, it's like you look at the story and you go, "Well, is that true?" Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And then you ch- you can... You flip... There's a methodology for flipping the words around, and you go, would th- "Is that more true? Is there something else that would be more true?" 'Cause ultimately, we are story-making, meaning-making machines. Right. Which takes us into, you know, to the topic of discernment. Matt Kosterman: So- Mm-hmm ... how do you help people with the discernment around the st- like, what are, what are the, what's the value of the stories? And, and- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Well, the value of the stories can be because, uh, we find the root a lot of times. Once we start uncut- unraveling the stories, we can usually start to see the patterns. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. And you so often, there's, like, these- Mm, what, I can't remember who told me this term, but it's like piggyback experiences where, um, there's like a root trauma- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Amber Reneé: and then throughout our lives we end up having experiences that like mimic the feeling of that initial trauma or, you know, have some kind of similarity- Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: whether it's super obvious or really abstract or anything in between. But related. It, it- But related in some way ... it sort of Matt Kosterman: rhymes with the trauma, Amber Reneé: right? Exactly. It rhymes with the trauma. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Amber Reneé: And so sometimes when we can start to look at the stories it'll take us back to, oh, well then there was this story and this story, and eventually we can go back to that root- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: and find the story of the root. But what I've always found interesting is, um, like in the work that I learned with Renee in the mentorship, the inner journey work, um, especially when we're doing inner child work, it's, uh, discouraged to really go deep into the story. Mm-hmm. We might find the root and the age that a, a root trauma happened, but we don't need to go deep into the details of the story of what was happening. Amber Reneé: What we need is to give love to that child. To- But- Matt Kosterman: Right ... Amber Reneé: I'm going off on a tangent, so. Matt Kosterman: No, no, I was actually gonna take you there 'cause I was gonna s- I, I, it, it was, it's a n- I think a natural progression of like, you know, 'cause y- you can do so much with massage and reiki- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: but you're not actually changing beliefs necessarily- Yeah Matt Kosterman: with it, and you're not- Mm-hmm ... you're, you're settling the nervous system, right? Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: But oftentimes the person goes back and gets into their same routine. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And I know in my own case the nervous system, you know, would get all kinda, you know, whacked out again. So- Amber Reneé: Yes ... Matt Kosterman: talk a little bit about Renee's, the journey work. Matt Kosterman: Like, what is it? You know, it's like- Mm-hmm ... not medicine work. It's shamanic journey. What does that, what does that look like, and, and, and how, and what does it do for the... How does it benefit the people? Amber Reneé: So the journey work itself is, um, it's- Stems from shamanic journeying Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: Um, but the, the modality that Renee taught is unique to her. Amber Reneé: Yeah She essentially kind of made it up where, um, I'm actively taking the client through their own journey. 'Cause traditionally sha- a shamanic journey, the shaman journeys for the person. So the- Matt Kosterman: They go, they go dive into their sub- They go dive into the Amber Reneé: depths ... unconscious and, yeah And it's because the, the non-physical reality, non-ordinary reality, there's a lot going on there. Amber Reneé: Yeah And it's not necessarily a safe place all the time. Like, you do need to have some, um, some practice and some already established relationships with the, um, spirits and guides- Yeah ... and allies and m- m- characters that you're gonna meet in non-ordinary reality. And so it makes sense that, like, traditionally the shaman would go there. Amber Reneé: But- ' Matt Kosterman: Cause they had a lineage. They had years of training and apprenticing and- Amber Reneé: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Yeah Amber Reneé: But now, I mean, we have access to so much information. Right And- I think that humans have evolved in such a way that we can be our own shamans to some degree. Matt Kosterman: Totally. Amber Reneé: And that this is actually part of humanity's evolution, is that we no longer, or we're working toward a, a period of time where we no longer need to be reaching outside of ourselves. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, we don't need an intercessor. Mm-hmm. We don't need, you know, we don't need the priest- Mm-hmm ... to take us to God. Amber Reneé: Right. Matt Kosterman: We don't need the shaman to take us to our own subconscious. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yeah, we can go there on our own, but it does require, um, again, like practice- And Matt Kosterman: gui- guidance, I mean- Amber Reneé: And guidance Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you're ending Amber Reneé: up as a guide. Amber Reneé: Um, because also just, uh, the, the fact alone that, um, we typically are deeply conditioned to let the ego drive. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: And the e- the ego is so used to that, that it doesn't wanna l- leave the driver's seat. It will, you know, it'll sit there trying so hard to make sense of things and to- ' Matt Kosterman: Cause, 'cause ultimately it wants to protect us and protect us from looking stupid- Yeah Matt Kosterman: from feeling bad, from like it wants to be in control. Amber Reneé: Yes. Matt Kosterman: It wants to, you know- Amber Reneé: Be- and because the, the imagination and what- whatever is going on in non-ordinary reality, in the emotional body, all that stuff, it's not rational. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: It's not logical, and so that is like threatening to our sense of safety. Matt Kosterman: Yes. Amber Reneé: Not our actual safety, but our sense of safety. So that does, you know, bring us back to discernment as well, where it, it takes a while to get comfortable with being in that space and learning what it feels like to let the ego take a well-deserved rest. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Another phrase from Rene. Right, right. Amber Reneé: Um, let the thinking mind take a well-deserved rest and let the imagination open up and take control for a while. And, um, the, the sensitivity to being able to- feel out discernment and then trust whatever you're sensing around discernment, it, it takes practice. Mm-hmm. And so you do need a guide, I think, at least in the beginning stages of kind of navigating your own healing journey in this way. Amber Reneé: So I would never recommend for somebody who's brand new to this stuff to go do a journey all on their own. Yeah. Because at the very least, it's just gonna be confusing, and it probably won't l- let you go very deep. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Amber Reneé: Um, so that's what I do with the journey work. Um, the guided inner journeying that I do with people is that I just sit and lead the client through, um, a- It's a bit of Matt Kosterman: a, it's a hyp- it's almost a hypnosis. Matt Kosterman: It's almost a hypnosis. It's a Amber Reneé: light, light Matt Kosterman: hypnosis. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yeah. You just, I, I help to guide you through your own imagination. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: And you, uh, we always start in a place in nature, because that is really grounding and comforting for the nervous system. And then you kind of start to open up your imagination to this concept that, um, all these elements are aware of you. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. And that there's guides and allies here. And then once you have established some kind of a relationship with a guide or an ally, then we can use the body as a portal to go deeper into your own healing. Mm-hmm. Whatever needs to happen there. Matt Kosterman: Are you taking people in, um, 'cause I remember we did sort of both with drumming. Matt Kosterman: Are you doing, uh, u- are you using drumming for s- at all? Amber Reneé: I- Or are you just talking? I do sometimes. Okay. But in the guided inner journey sessions specifically, there's no drumming. No Matt Kosterman: drumming, okay. Amber Reneé: There's really no sound. I usually will even turn the music down- Wow ... and just let us be in conversation. I always start and end the sessions with quiet Reiki. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amber Reneé: Just to get the body really relaxed and to kind of get the, um, mental body into a more meditative state. Um, but yeah, then we're just like, we're talking the whole time. I'm just kind of asking questions. What do you see? What do you hear? Yeah. What do you smell? Um, and open, open your awareness to the idea that there might be a guide here, and just let the guide emerge. Amber Reneé: Um, th- you know, there's, there's no rush. These sessions are two hours- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Amber Reneé: in, in my practice. And there's no wrong, Matt Kosterman: there's no wrong answer. Amber Reneé: Yeah, there's no wrong answer. Matt Kosterman: Um- Yeah, you're not being graded. You're not, it's not like- No ... well, the other, uh, 99, you know, 99% of people surveyed, they didn't see that, so you're weird. Matt Kosterman: You know, it's not- It's no- It's not- It's Amber Reneé: definitely not that at all ... it's not Matt Kosterman: that. Amber Reneé: No. And it's really just kind of like, um, it's meant to just be a, an exercise in curiosity. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: And it's amazing what the spirit and the body will bring up into your awareness when you go into these spaces. Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah. I mean, I've had, uh, crazy experiences with, with Renee. Matt Kosterman: And it's, and again, it's no drugs. This is not, you know- Amber Reneé: No ... Matt Kosterman: I know everybody knows I'm a big, you know, psych- psychonaut advocate. Mm-hmm. But this is, this is all your own supply. Amber Reneé: Right. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Um, I mean, I've been deeply moved by things that have, have shown up- Amber Reneé: Oh, yeah ... Matt Kosterman: in these journeys. Amber Reneé: Me too. Moved and surprised. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: And, uh, often have that experience with people on my table too who do the journey work with me, that it's like, uh, y- it's a shock sometimes almost- Mm ... in a good way- Mm-hmm ... of like- The younger parts of them that, that will come up into the awareness and have things to say. Um, or the, uh, one of the tools that we use in the journey work is, um, we will sometimes do soul retrieval. Amber Reneé: We'll sometimes do what's called energy extraction- Mm-hmm ... where if there's a big emotion like depression or anxiety, for example, that the person wants to work on, we'll actually go through a protocol that helps you personify the anxiety or personify the depression, and then we have a conversation with it. Amber Reneé: And it's incredible. And what does it want you to know? What does it want you to know? Yeah. What does it really need? Matt Kosterman: What does it need? Yeah. Amber Reneé: Um- Matt Kosterman: Usually love. Amber Reneé: Exactly. And that's the thing is, like, when we feel something like, um, overwhelming depression or overwhelming anxiety, it doesn't feel good. Right. And so we- Matt Kosterman: We wanna Amber Reneé: push it Matt Kosterman: away Amber Reneé: we wanna push it away. Yeah. We wanna villainize it. Get rid Matt Kosterman: of it. Amber Reneé: Get rid of it. Give Matt Kosterman: me a pill. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. And the journey work helps you realize that, oh, this is actually just a part of me that needs attention and love. Mm-hmm. And once you give it that, and you have this tangible experience, even though it's just in your imagination, "just"- Just Amber Reneé: quote, unquote. Right. Um- That's Matt Kosterman: doing a lot of work Amber Reneé: there ... it's, yeah. But, um, it's, it shifts your whole relationship with that emotion. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: And so then when you encounter that emotion after doing a journey or a few journeys, you usually respond to it differently, and you have a tool after going through something like an energy extraction in the journal or in the journey- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: um, that then allows you to treat it more like a friend, you know? And you can kind of recognize, like, oh, you're agitating me, or I'm feeling agitated by this right now because- You know, there's a younger part of me that just needs a little more love or- Right ... whatever it might be. Matt Kosterman: Whatever it might be. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you sh- you, you bring in the, the Saltremalion, the feeding your demons, the- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: dissolving the body into a nectar that feeds the- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: the entity, and- Amber Reneé: It's so cool. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah. Amber Reneé: And, and yes, the, that whole, um, process of doing the feeding your demons is, uh- ' Matt Kosterman: Cause I mean, we, we have this, there's this n- narrative or whatever, like you need to slay the dragon, you need to slay the demon, you need to, you know- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm, yeah, we're not killing it Amber Reneé: death, death to the Matt Kosterman: beast Amber Reneé: We're nourishing it. Right yeah. We instead we nourish it. Yeah. And, um, that also, again, like just calms the nervous system and the whole nervous system pattern that we're holding around the- Resistance ... like the resistance- Yeah ... the cellular memory that created the chronic mood in the first place. Amber Reneé: Um, and then we don't just nourish the emotion, we find an ally in it. Hmm. So we actually, like I'll... The journey work gives you a tangible experience of witnessing this personified emotion receiving nourishment and then changing before your eyes into something that is more of a friend and an ally. Um, so you're having this, like, transformative experience- Yeah Amber Reneé: right there. And I actually think that having those kinds of experiences in your imagination, being held in a container like this, like having somebody there witnessing you- Right, yeah ... like guiding you through it and witnessing you- Matt Kosterman: And not thinking you're crazy. Amber Reneé: And not thinking you're crazy. It actually, um, to circle back to discernment again, it, it just naturally helps you be more discerning, more trusting- Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: of your feelings. And like Matt Kosterman: your inner experience. Amber Reneé: And your inner experience. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and I, you know, I love the f- the, the whole metaphor of you turning the demon into an ally. It's, it's, you know, that old saying of, of, you know, your, your biggest weakness is also your greatest strength, and- Mm-hmm ... and, and vice versa. Matt Kosterman: It's, we live in this duality. It's both. Yes. And. Yes. And, and so how can you diffuse the ener- the demon energy? Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: You do it through making it an ally and- Yeah ... accepting the fact that, oh, I have ADHD, or oh, I'm, you know, whatever. I mean, the depression, the anxiety, whatever, they're all just signals- Amber Reneé: Yeah Matt Kosterman: to show you that something is out of balance. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just nervous system firing and the, you know, the fascia- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Amber Reneé: like, um, forming itself around resistance and holding onto these old stories. And so, yeah, the journey work and just, like, kind of learning how your imagination functions for y- in, in these spaces. Amber Reneé: Um, 'cause I think a lot of times we're not really very, um- Practiced in listening to our imagination at all Matt Kosterman: No, no. Yeah. Not, not since I was five. Amber Reneé: Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean It's like we, everybody knows how to do it when they're a little kid- Yeah ... but then we get conditioned out of it. Matt Kosterman: Like, yeah, no, you don't really have imaginary friends, but, but yes, but, but I do. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Amber Reneé: Yeah, and it's like- Yeah ... imaginary friends are, I, I mean, n- after doing journey work like this for however many years- Yeah, cool ... I've been doing it, they're real. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: You know? Yeah. They're, they're real and non-ordinary reality, non-physical reality is just as real as physical reality. Um, and so it's learning how to kind of just flip the switch over in your awareness from physical reality, where we're so deeply conditioned to just, like, be here and pay attention to all this stuff so easily, where we could, we can, um, train ourselves to pay attention to what's going on in non-ordinary reality, non-physical reality just as easily. Amber Reneé: Um, it just- It- ... takes practice. Matt Kosterman: It just takes practice, yeah- Mm-hmm ... which we haven't, we haven't gotten. Um, and, and so speaking of, like, you know, non-ordinary reality, um, another thing that you do that's really cool is the tarot readings. Amber Reneé: Yes. Matt Kosterman: So tarot cards- Mm-hmm ... I know you've been deep into that for a while. Matt Kosterman: How did that- Yeah ... come about, and what do you...? Amber Reneé: Tarot actually just came about as a hobby. Okay. Uh, I just thought it was cool and, um, was studying it for fun. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: And over the years, I just became good at doing readings for people, and I think it's just, it's because of the energy work and the massage work that I do, 'cause I had already developed a sensitivity to people and, you know, just being able to kind of hold neutral space for people's stories and- Okay Amber Reneé: their needs and, um, having just a curiosity about tarot. Um, I use tarot now to reflect your own story back to you- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Amber Reneé: from a more neutral perspective. So I don't use tarot as, like, a predictive, like, fortune-telling tool. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, which is sort of, you know, what pe- I think if people know of it at all, that's what they- Amber Reneé: Most of the time, that's kind of what they think, that it's kind of a party trick, and- Matt Kosterman: Yeah Amber Reneé: it's like- Matt Kosterman: I'm gonna meet my... Amber Reneé: Right. When am I gonna meet- When am I gonna meet my, my- ... my perfect person? Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah. Or, Amber Reneé: and what, like, w- what timeline should I... I'm like, "I don't do timelines." Yeah. Should I take, should I take- 'Cause also time is valuable. Should I take, Matt Kosterman: yeah, should I take this job? Amber Reneé: Right. And actually, I do do tarot readings about that kind of stuff- Okay Amber Reneé: a lot, but it, what I- Just Matt Kosterman: like the energy alignment. Amber Reneé: Exactly. What's the energy around it? Mm-hmm. Like what is the story that the energy is telling that's moving through your life right now? And, like, 99 or maybe 100% of the time Um, when I do a tarot reading, the, one of the most common responses is like, "Oh, this is like telling me stuff I already knew." Amber Reneé: But again, it's kind of helping you to trust yourself. Mm-hmm. Um, because If you already knew it, like- Matt Kosterman: You wouldn't, you wouldn't be asking Amber Reneé: me ... you wouldn't be asking. And so y- you're, it, there is something really powerful about having your story reflected back to you in that way. Um, and tarot is, it's fascinating m- because the tarot itself, you know, the 78 cards, they tell the, the arc of human experience. Amber Reneé: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: they're all arche- each one's an archetype, right? It's a different- Amber Reneé: Yeah, the Major Arcana are, is the archetype of the fool's journey. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amber Reneé: Um, or the hero's journey, which is a literary concept. Yeah. But, um, it's reflected in the Major Arcana of the tarot, and then each of the four suits tells a more, like, nuanced story- Okay Amber Reneé: of, of the human experience, whereas the, the Major Arcana is, like, the archetypal human experience that we all go through these iterations of the fool's journey over and over again in our lives. And then there's gonna be bits and pieces of those more nuanced stories as far as like, well, how is your emotional body being affected in this archt- archetypal experience, or your mental body, um, affected. Matt Kosterman: And ar- and ar- arguably probably also related to the themes that we come into life to explore. Amber Reneé: Right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Right? 'Cause not, you know, not everybody's here for all of it. Amber Reneé: Right. Yeah. Everybody- Yeah, yeah ... has their own kind of unique configuration of that stuff. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Karma, whatever you wanna call it, karma, whatever- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: however you wanna ... Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yeah, and so the tarot can just kind of help you to m- get better acquainted with how the different energies are moving through your life and affecting you, and, um, and yeah. So we can ask all kinds of questions from, like, some- something more mundane like, "Should I take this new job?" Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. All the way up to like, "How can I, you know, be a better person, or be a better partner?" Or- Mm-hmm ... um, "What's gonna happen in the next three months of my life?" Yeah, yeah. Or whatever, you know? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I can, you know, if I, if I look at the mechanics of the tarot and m- somebody might think, "Well, it's, like, it's random," or whatever, or, or, or, "How do you know?" Matt Kosterman: I mean, I, I can think of it from a quantum perspective, like that that card can be whatever that card- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: can, like, it, the, you know. Amber Reneé: Yes. Matt Kosterman: There's a, there's an, there's a, an organizing principle behind the whole thing. Amber Reneé: Right. Um, and at this point, the cards have so many layers of meaning attached to them, like every single card has so many layers of meaning. Amber Reneé: Okay. And, um ... Matt Kosterman: And just through work, you've worked with them for so long now, yeah, you're- Mm-hmm ... you're well-versed in, in- In these layers and in the, the Amber Reneé: Yeah. And anybody can get benefit from the tarot. Like if you're listening and somebody who's curious about tarot, I, I always encourage people to just start like pulling a card every morning Every Matt Kosterman: morning, yeah Amber Reneé: or every night or whatever, and just applying that card to whatever happened in your day. And it's not necessarily confirmation bias. It's more like getting to know the multilayered meanings that exist within each card and how that applies to your life than Like, uh, connects your personal experience with the meaning of the card and just deepens your understanding of the story that the tarot's telling. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I think for me, 'cause I, I did it for a number of years. And, and, and for those who may not know, you can buy a tarot deck and you can... There's all kinds of soul deck and this deck, and that, and, you know, there's different artwork, and it's beautiful stuff, and they all come with a book that explains each card, so you don't have to... Matt Kosterman: Y- you're not... You don't have to learn anything. You pull a card- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: and, and, and read it, and just see how, how it applies. And I think for me it was almost, if I look back at it, um, uh, like a, a, a, a training wheels for synchronicity. Amber Reneé: Ooh, I like that. Matt Kosterman: You know? Like, for apprecia- like, 'cause it w- it would just co- you know, e- each time I would pull something it was like, "Oh, oh yeah. Matt Kosterman: Oh." Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, that really makes a lot of sense right now, whereas if I'd pulled something different, I couldn't, you know, there- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: there, there, there was no alignment in my life, so- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: it, it, it, it began to teach me- Mm ... to look for the, the synchronicities and, uh- Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: Yeah, and just wait until you start pulling the same card every day for, like- Right Amber Reneé: two weeks in a row. After you shuffle them. That's also very mysterious. Yeah. Yeah. You shuffle them over and over, and there it is again. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amber Reneé: It's like you can't deny that, like, what are the odds? Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: I mean, for, like, statistics nerds- Yeah ... the tarot is also great because, like, what are the odds that you're- Yeah, you- Amber Reneé: gonna pull that card- For Matt Kosterman: two Amber Reneé: weeks Matt Kosterman: in a row ... week, three times in a row. Out of 72 cards in a deck. Yeah. And you randomly sp- shuffle them, spread them out, and ask to be shown. Mm-hmm. Like, which one should I pull? Yeah. Amber Reneé: Yeah. It's, um, yeah. The- It's like, it's just a tool. It's just another tool that, um, the m- mysterious, the great mystery, the mysterious spirit, whatever is- Right Amber Reneé: going on in non-ordinary, non-physical reality, it's just another tool that it can use to communicate with you. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: Um, or that you can use to communicate with it. Matt Kosterman: I mean, kind... I, I think kind of like, at, at least in its, in its initial stages maybe a, a year or two ago, kind of like AI was seemed to be doing for a while. Matt Kosterman: It seems less so. I feel like they've tuned it out- Amber Reneé: Mm ... Matt Kosterman: a bit. But it, it felt like super synchronistic and- Mm-hmm ... and communicative in a different way- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: initially. Amber Reneé: Yeah, I can see what you mean there. Matt Kosterman: You know? Amber Reneé: It c- it can be a little bit like divinatory sometimes. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. You can use it that way, I guess, if you want to, but then you have to just be careful with that because it does have confirmation bias built into it. Amber Reneé: Totally. Yeah. And, yeah, and it, like- The Matt Kosterman: looping Amber Reneé: and the- It's, it's- The how you see- ... um, designed to please you. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: And make you feel really good about whatever you're asking or saying. Right. Matt Kosterman: Should I jump off the building? Absolutely. That's a wonderful idea. Amber Reneé: The tarot's not gonna do that to you. No, no. Amber Reneé: Don't worry. It's gonna say- Yeah ... "Hell no, don't jump off that building." Matt Kosterman: Don't jump off the building, yeah, Amber Reneé: yeah. What is it that's making you ask that question, you know? Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Yeah, getting to the root. Again, it's just another means to kind of getting to the root of a thing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So you're doing massage work, the energy work, the tarot, the journeying. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Um, and where are... Uh, 'cause we haven't, we didn't talk about this. Are you, where are you in terms of one-on-one versus group stuff? You have, are you doing group off- you have group offerings? Or are Amber Reneé: you- I have. You- But I've actually recently decided that I'm going to move away from group offerings- Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: for the time being and just focus on one-on-one. For whatever reason, that's just what I'm- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Amber Reneé: you know, that's where the magic happens- Yeah ... in the work that I do, is in one-on-one sessions, and in-person one-on-one sessions especially, though I do remote work also, and I have some, um, you know, we can do the journey work or Reiki- Remotely, yeah Amber Reneé: remotely from anywhere. Matt Kosterman: But yeah, in, in terms of, uh, uh, the magic and what, what, what are, like, what's one or two sort of m- miraculous, you know, success stories that you've seen- Mm ... come out of this? I know you have, I know you have tons and tons. Mm-hmm. But what comes to top of mind? Like what have you seen transformationally with people? Amber Reneé: Yeah. I mean, I've, yeah, so much stuff. The first thing that came to mind was, um, a client that I had many years ago. It was actually before I even went into private practice. I was still working at the spa. But she started coming to see me for Reiki every single week, and she did that for a year and a half. Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. Amber Reneé: Um, she would come in once a week for a 60-minute Reiki session, and when she first came in, her issue was around, um, like watching all of her friends getting married and having these successful relationships and feeling lonely and, like, wanting that for herself. And over the course of a year and a half, you can imagine, that completely devolved. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: And that was actually not the real, like, issue. Matt Kosterman: The lone- Amber Reneé: the Matt Kosterman: loneliness Amber Reneé: was. The lonely, the loneliness and, like, the, the need for a partner. Uh-huh, uh-huh. It was really, um- It, it took us deep, deep into, um, her own personal insecurities and her upbringing and her childhood re- re- her relationship with her mom. Amber Reneé: And, um, over the course of a year and a half, she went from a highly anxious person to a deeply grounded, spiritually connected person that had a really rich relationship with spirit guides and with her own energy body and emotions. And, you know, she ended up, like Leaving the job that was stressing her out- Mm. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... and, um, repairing relationship with her mom, and moving to a different state in, in a place that she'd always wanted to live. Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. Amber Reneé: And just, like, doing all of these things that were kind of- Matt Kosterman: She was stuck on ... Amber Reneé: scary for her- Yeah, scary ... before. Um, and now she's a Reiki practitioner herself, and- Is she really? Amber Reneé: Yeah. And I would say she's maybe even surpassed me in skill at this point. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And that was all just through the Reiki, and then- Mm-hmm ... you would talk about what was coming up for you initially to kinda- Yeah ... jumpstart things? Amber Reneé: Yeah. In every Reiki session, I always give feedback about whatever I'm noticing- Matt Kosterman: Right Amber Reneé: um, uh, in my awareness of, like, how the Reiki and ... Is interacting with your body. So yeah, I would always give her feedback- Mm ... at the end of every session. And, um, this person in particular, it was interesting, because she had, um, like, I guess what you would call, like, night terrors- Okay ... and, um, sleep paralysis- Oh, wow Amber Reneé: a lot. And, like, would see, like, the shadow people and stuff. Uh-huh. And so we did also a lot of work around that. And she went from being terrified every night to being fully empowered- Matt Kosterman: Okay ... Amber Reneé: and, like, just really being able to- Was she, was Matt Kosterman: she lucid dreaming too? ... take control. Did she get to lucid dreaming to be able to Amber Reneé: I don't know that she was lucid dreaming, actually. Okay. Matt Kosterman: I'm just curious. Amber Reneé: Um, no. She was ... It was more of, um, stuff that would happen when she was, uh, awake. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amber Reneé: You know, she would see the shadow people, or she would, like, halfway wake up and be in sleep paralysis and- Yeah ... not be able to be in control of her body. Amber Reneé: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: I've been in ... I've had that, I've had sleep paralysis a few times. It is- Amber Reneé: That fascinates me. I still don't fully understand sleep paralysis and shadow people. Um- It's- ... and I've had a few clients. She's the most ... The, the person I worked with that we, like, worked on that the most. Okay. But I've definitely had other clients who- Matt Kosterman: Who've had it Amber Reneé: have Matt Kosterman: had it. Yeah. It's not a recurring thing, but I, I have had it where you're like, "I can't run." Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And, "Oh, Amber Reneé: everything's Matt Kosterman: just stopped." Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yes. The sleep- Yeah ... paralysis thing makes a little bit more sense. The shadow people thing- Yeah ... I don't even know what's going on there. No, what's going on there? Amber Reneé: There's something going on, though. I don't- I do not buy into this, the, um, theory that Western medicine has given us that it's just our brain firings, you know- Yeah, yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah. Amber Reneé: Right ... and, like, making up something. There's something else going on there. Matt Kosterman: I mean, I've had enough experiences on drugs and not on drugs of beings coming into my body- Yeah Matt Kosterman: and taking over my body that- Yeah ... it, it ain't just my brain. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Like- Amber Reneé: And there's so many people that have shared experiences with, like, the sleep paralysis- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Amber Reneé: shadow people and stuff. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Or, and if you go into, you know, near-death experiences too, that's like- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm convinced that one of the reasons humanity has developed the internet is so that we can have these conversations- Yeah Matt Kosterman: so that people can find each other- Around the world and they can validate their experiences Yes Whether it's U- what are they calling them? UAPs, you know- Mm-hmm ... whether it's aliens, UFOs, um- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... uh, near-death It's interesting that you say that too, because I really think that valid- g- having your experience validated when it comes to this, like, spiritual stuff or nonphysical stuff is so deeply important. Matt Kosterman: Yes. Amber Reneé: And it's actually the only way that I think anyone can get, um, or can just, like, increase their skill if they're wanting to learn how to do this themselves too, is by receiving validation somehow- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Amber Reneé: um, through Matt Kosterman: Through direct experience. Yes. I mean, that's been my path. I mean, I didn't really believe in any of this shit- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: years ago. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And you know, I, I stood in a room with 100, or maybe, I don't know, 75 or 100 people with Paul Selig doing attunements and, and toning, and the whole room filled with white light from the floor up, like somebody turned on a smoke machine. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: You know? It like- Yeah ... and we were all shaking, and we were crying, and, and, and- Yeah, and Amber Reneé: you can't deny that that experience happened Amber Reneé: like, Matt Kosterman: I had it. I've had the experience of, you know, this last retreat of a being taking over my body, moving my body in very strange ways, making very strange noises- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: um, all through my breath. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, Amber Reneé: yeah. Yeah, I had so many experiences like that when I was, um, first learning Reiki. Matt Kosterman: Hmm. ' Amber Reneé: Cause the first year of my Reiki training, um, I... Amber Reneé: my whole life blew up, you know? Okay. It was like Reiki just burned through everything in my life that wasn't supporting my highest good. Yeah. Uh, I also just happened to start being able to address my chronic pain around the same time where I started seeing a chiropractor two or three times a week, and I was seeing a craniosacral therapist once a week- Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: and getting acupuncture once a week at that time. So you can imagine my life was kind of feeling really wild. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Um, but- Matt Kosterman: Move all that energy being moved and- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: shifted and- Amber Reneé: It was- Matt Kosterman: Aligned ... Amber Reneé: totally crazy town, but, you know, kind of fun looking back on it now. But at the time it felt totally batshit. Matt Kosterman: Un- unhinged. Amber Reneé: Very unhinged. And along with all that unhinged stuff ... Oh, and I was also ... 'Cause I, I did, um, a mentorship with a actual, like, pipe-holding shaman- Okay ... to learn how to do journeys, uh, to a drum. To a drum. So I was also doing that back then, which that's the wildest experiences I've ever had, even more than any of the journeys I ever got with Renee. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm, with the drum. When, when I was having the, the guy drum in the room with me. Um, yeah, I have some- Yeah ... crazy stories about that. But yeah, the, those, um, at that time I was having a lot of those kinds of experiences like what you just described of like, um, feeling beings coming into the room and, like, tangibly, I could tangibly feel the atmosphere change. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Like, the atmosphere would become thicker. Mm-hmm. And my body would start tingling, and I would have an experience in my imagination and then talk to my teacher or to the other people who were in the room, and, oh, they had a very similar or same experience as well, where those kinds of, like, validating experiences- Help you to trust what's- Yeah Amber Reneé: actually- To trust Matt Kosterman: what's happening ... Amber Reneé: going on. And, and it helps you understand, like, the way that your body responds so that when you feel your body responding in a similar way in the future- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you f- you feel s- you feel safe and you don't resist it. Amber Reneé: Right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I think, I mean, o- to me, all of the different methods of the people that I talk to on this show are, are ways of bringing your nervous system into a coherence or, or ways of relaxing your nervous system. Matt Kosterman: I know, like, psychedelic medicines, particularly for me, have been useful in showing me how it is possible to feel- Mm-hmm ... in a body. And sometimes that's deeply relaxed. Sometimes that's having the experience of lower world beings flowing through my body- Mm-hmm ... and purring and crawling over me- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: only to have that similar experience in non-medicine consciousness- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: at a retreat when- Yeah ... when we opened the space out in Sweden, and man, I could feel them. Like, they were right there. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Just below the surface, I could feel them around my ankles, and I think, you know, at one stage in my life, that would've freaked me the fuck out. Amber Reneé: Right. And yeah, and that's part of the process is, um, like yeah, learning how to like not be afraid of it too. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Um, 'cause I was just gonna say, like anybody can have experiences like this. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I'm not special. Amber Reneé: Right. I- it's, it's ... We, we all have access to it because it's actually an inherent aspect of being human- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Amber Reneé: is we are actually always interacting with- Matt Kosterman: The spirit world ... Amber Reneé: the spirit world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amber Reneé: But most of us just don't notice it because it's very, very subtle, and we're so programmed to be paying attention to the physical world. The physical world is just very, very loud. Yep. And the non-physical world is much more subtle, and sometimes it might, for momentarily, become louder, but a lot of times in those moments we get scared of it- Yeah Amber Reneé: and then we just kind of close ourselves off- Yeah ... even more to having any future experiences. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I mean, I'll do, I'll do, um, meditations. I'll do mirror meditation sometimes where I'm just staring as, as long as I can go without blinking and, and staring, and sometimes doing attunements, um- Uh, like from, from Paul's work. Matt Kosterman: And I've had, I had the experience first in a medicine journey where I was doing, doing mirror work, and I watched my face morph into about 20 different faces. Mm-hmm. And I saw my grandfather, and I saw people I didn't know, and I literally was like a Michael Jackson video. Mm-hmm. That black and white where it's just like, whomp, and whomp, and it just kept changing. Matt Kosterman: I was like, "Ooh, that's really cool." Yeah. Like, you know, I was tripping- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: heavily. But I've had that in normal consciousness and, and I can see where the ego still gets a little bit frightened by it. Mm-hmm. Like, there was, yeah, just a few weeks ago, I, I, I did it and it, and it morphed, and I was like, "Oh, look at that." Matt Kosterman: Or I feel the... You know, I do the attunements and I can feel the energy flow through my body. Mm-hmm. And- Amber Reneé: Yeah. I still find, uh, i- interestingly for me, when I try to do automatic writing, I still get scared. I don't know why. Uh-huh. But every time I sit down and try to practice something like that, and just like, I- Let Amber Reneé: I'm like, "Oh, I'm open. I'm gonna let the pen..." My whole... It's like my heart starts racing, and I get butterflies in my stomach, and- Matt Kosterman: Oh, interesting ... Amber Reneé: um, uh, yeah. And it's like I'm not even actually scared. I don't know why my body- But some aspect of you Matt Kosterman: is. Amber Reneé: There's... Yeah. Of just like, yeah, just giving it over to... Amber Reneé: So yeah, there's, there's a lot of work for us to do around- Yeah ... like reducing the amount of like fear and resistance we have to the non-rational, non-logical aspects of reality. That don't hold physical space Matt Kosterman: Right, right. And yeah, and I, I mean, I, it's, to me it's promising, like we're getting there. I mean, I've seen videos. Matt Kosterman: I think it was, did Renee share it with us, of the woman in, in the UK who takes the like 8, 9 and 10-year-olds and puts the blindfolds on them and teaches them to... Not teaches them, just basically shows them that they have the ability. They play catch and they- Amber Reneé: Oh, yes Matt Kosterman: You remember that? Amber Reneé: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Y- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: So they're literally blindfold. Matt Kosterman: They can't see a darn. They're, they're, they're like drawing pictures and- Mm-hmm ... and they're, they're naming what colors they're holding up in front of them, um, because they're tuned into- Mm-hmm ... to it. And we've been... They haven't been as programmed. Amber Reneé: Right Matt Kosterman: And so it's like we, we're, we older folks are getting deprogrammed. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, and I just, I, yeah, I guess I feel like we're here to like say to people like, "No, this stuff's possible and it's safe." Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And just, you know, go with the flow, baby. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yeah. And just like be curious. Matt Kosterman: Be curious. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's so much value, there's so much value in my opinion in, in opening yourself up to that kind of thing and just like being curious about what other kinds of experiences and relationships you can have- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: that are not rooted in physical. Matt Kosterman: In the physical. Yeah. Yeah. And there are times, as I know you had a surgery recently, there are times when you need a physician. Amber Reneé: Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. Um, surgeons are very important. Matt Kosterman: Very important, Amber Reneé: uh, you know. Yes. I, I don't... I think Western medicine is amazing. Yeah. And yeah. I'm not like an anti-Western medicine person whatsoever. Amber Reneé: Um, I just wish that- Western medicine and like more of the Eastern philosophies and, um, medical practices would combine. Yeah. 'Cause I think that's where we're like missing something. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and I've said it before that if, you know, just 15 or 20% of the people who would go, who are going to doctors saying, "I'm anxious, I'm depressed," or whatever- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: would, you know, go take mushrooms. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Or like- Matt Kosterman: Like, or, Amber Reneé: you know- Get a massage. Matt Kosterman: Get a massage, Amber Reneé: right? Yeah, 'cause that's another thing I- Matt Kosterman: Take a day off. Amber Reneé: Yeah. It's like- You know? ... 'cause our, our bodies and our fascia are, are holding a lot of those patterns. Yeah. And it's not, uh, you know, unfortunately Western medicine is very heavy on the, um, pharmaceuticals. Amber Reneé: Right. And just trying to like mask the symptoms, just get the symptoms to go away. Right. It's almost- That's the whole goal ... Matt Kosterman: it's almost like a, it's a form of a military triage. You know, the guy just came in and- Yeah ... he's got a bullet wound to the shoulder, and you patch him up so he stops bleeding, you send him back out into the front. Amber Reneé: Right. But it's like our, our emotions don't need to be treated that way. Right. Not in the same way as like a physical wound. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: Um, but that's what Western medicine does. It kind of just looks at it in the same similar kind of framework. Matt Kosterman: Yes. Yeah. Amber Reneé: But really, um, our emotional experience and, uh- Matt Kosterman: Spiritual experience Amber Reneé: our spiritual experience, they, they need something else, you know? And, Matt Kosterman: and, and realizing, and this is a great segue, and realizing that- It's all a spiritual experience. Amber Reneé: Right. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Right? And, and so ta- let's, I think it's i- interesting to talk about that and talk about spiritual bypass and what is- Mm. Yeah Matt Kosterman: what is, you know, we- we've, we've, I've been, I've done spiritual bypass. I'll probably do it again. Mm-hmm. I see evidence of it a- a- all the time. Yeah. So what, what, ta- let's talk about what is spiritual bypass and, and- Amber Reneé: Spiritual bypassing, as I understand it, is using spiritual concepts to, um, essentially kind of, like, make an excuse to not do the deeper work that you need to do in order to realize why you're feeling a certain way or, you know, why- It Matt Kosterman: te- and it tends to be, like, sort of everything is love and light- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: and I'm healed, like, you know. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and like, you know, all lives matter, that kind of mentality. Whereas, uh, when you're not spiritually bypassing, you're actually, like, open to the, the darker aspects. The Matt Kosterman: shadows. Amber Reneé: The shadows. Yeah. And, um, you're willing to look at how your own behavior has contributed to where you're at in your life and, like, take responsibility. Amber Reneé: Yeah, I guess spiritual bypassing is like you're not taking responsibility for anything. For Matt Kosterman: anything. Amber Reneé: And- Matt Kosterman: And it also, I think it shows up, and I've, again, I've been guilty of this, of wanting everybody else to h- to heal. Amber Reneé: Right. Right. Uh, yeah, projecting Matt Kosterman: outward. Projecting outward. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: You know, like, "I got this. Matt Kosterman: I did this amazing thing. Now everybody needs to do this- Mm-hmm ... to be like me." Amber Reneé: Right. Matt Kosterman: Right? I've done that. Because Amber Reneé: I'm enlightened. Guilty. I figured it out. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Right. And then boy, you get your ass handed to you. Amber Reneé: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, um, even though there's so much, uh, evolution happening in humanity right now, and we are- spiraling upward in many ways. Amber Reneé: Right There's a lot of spiritual bypassing going on in our reality right now, where, um, we don't wanna take responsibility for... A- and I'm talking about, like, a, you know, more as a collective. Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah. I mean, look at the occupant in the White House. Look at- Yeah ... you know, it's like I keep saying, not, not to get political, I'm l- but looking at it from a spiritual perspective, it's like the pointy end of the shadow spear. Amber Reneé: Absolutely. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I mean, it's all the shit that it's, it's, it's representative of all the stuff we don't wanna look at in our lives. Amber Reneé: Exactly. And that's what ends up happening when we just continuously spiritually bypass and say, like, "Oh, well, yeah, the, the, the dark stuff, we can just, like, put that over in the corner. Amber Reneé: We don't need to look at that. That's bad- Right ... and gross." Right. "And I'll just, just focus on enlightenment, and everything will get better." And it's like, no, 'cause that bad and gross stuff is eventually just gonna bubble up to the surface and force us to- Yes ... address it. Matt Kosterman: And, and by address it, I would argue that we go back to the shamanic journeying by, a- and, and the feeding your demons, by address it means love it. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: We are it. It is us. Amber Reneé: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And, and- And Amber Reneé: taking responsibility- And Matt Kosterman: taking responsibility Amber Reneé: for it ... for it. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: And, and, uh, yeah, recognizing that there is, um... It's, it's like an energy that's malnourished and, like, becomes deformed- Yeah ... because we aren't, um, giving it the proper attention. Matt Kosterman: And it ends up, it ends up consuming more of our energy to keep it stuck- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: to keep it repressed- Amber Reneé: Right ... Matt Kosterman: than it would if you would just see it. Amber Reneé: Right. Because you could think again of kind of that, um, kink in the hose analogy. Yes. That if there is a kink in the hose, or, like, you could think of that as, like, spiritual bypassing causes a kink in the hose, and then the material, whatever's moving through there, it can't freely flow. Amber Reneé: It can't flow. So it's gonna get all backed up and stagnated and turn toxic and- Yeah ... nasty, and there's no way to fix that without actually, like, getting that nasty, toxic shit- Yeah ... out of there. The Matt Kosterman: Roto-Rooter. Amber Reneé: Right. Yeah. And it's like, so you're gonna have to smell it and taste it- ... and look at it before it can be eliminated. Matt Kosterman: Right. Which is where the, the, the journey work, whether it's in, in normal, in, in your- Renee spaces and just shamanic spaces or- Mm-hmm ... it's with medicine or whatever, what, you know, breathwork, whatever it may be that allows you to access it. A lot of times the ego won't let you go there. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I mean, I had done I don't know how many psychedelic journeys and, you know, numerous retreats and, you know, I, I came Matt Kosterman: I'd, I'd sat with 5-MeO-DMT probably six or eight times, which is a super powerful medicine. And I, I had just got back from a Sweden, uh, tantric retreat where I, um, really let go of a lot of anger- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: um, that I didn't know it was still there. And then I was sitting with the bufo medicine again, and I said to the practitioner, who I'd worked with, uh, at least eight times, maybe 10 by that time, I said, "I think I'm ready to look at anger." Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And, and, and I know you know her, and, and she was giddy. She's like, "Oh, good." Uh-huh. Amber Reneé: Thank God. Matt Kosterman: Yep. And, and sure enough, some really gnarly shit came out- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: in that journey. I mean, like, yeah. Mm-hmm. Amber Reneé: Like, Matt Kosterman: stuff that there's no way in normal consciousness my ego would've let, allowed that to flow through me. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 'Cause it was just old, nasty shit. Amber Reneé: Yeah. And that's actually, I think, um, a lot of times people need a, a gentle, um, like runway- Like ramp, yeah ... into this kind of work because the ego is often, like, just gonna cling so hard to the old stuff- Right ... or to the spiritual bypassing patterns because there's so much deeply ingrained fear that like, "I'm gonna die if I-" Matt Kosterman: If I Amber Reneé: feel this. Amber Reneé: For example. If I feel this. If I, if I feel this, I'm going to die. Yeah. That's what the, that's what the ego is there to, like, kind of- Matt Kosterman: Protect ... Amber Reneé: protect us- Protect, yeah ... from those, like, big, big feelings. So, um, that's why- Right ... I love the, the configuration of all the modalities that I do because we can start with massage or we- Mm-hmm Amber Reneé: can start with just, like, passive receiving of Reiki for a while until the body starts to learn, like, okay, I can actually have, like, a big emotional release and feel better on the other side or I can- Yeah, yeah ... actually, like, expose this old memory of a trauma and, like, not have it take me down for two months afterward, you know? Amber Reneé: But you have to, sometimes for, for a lot of people I think you have to kind of slowly, gently bring the body and the, um- The Matt Kosterman: nervous system ... Amber Reneé: nervous system. Matt Kosterman: Bring it along, yeah. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, you know, and the other thing that's taken me years to learn, and we talked about this before we went live i-- before we started recording, is like there's not an end. Amber Reneé: No, there's not. That's something I know. It's like once you start the healing journey, you're- The- There's no Matt Kosterman: end point ... the, and, and, and that's another form of spiritual bypassing which I've done over the years. Like, oh, I'm done. Yeah. Like I'm ... And I kept looking for being done. Amber Reneé: Right. Matt Kosterman: Now I'm clearly ... I mean, I'm very much a seeker. Matt Kosterman: I will likely in this life always be a seeker- Mm-hmm ... of experiences and, and, and healing or, or whatever. But we talked before in, in episode a couple weeks ago with Laura, like that is why our souls, the energy that is ultimately us, right, decides to come into these bodies. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: To have these experiences. Amber Reneé: Yeah. It's a spiral dance as Starhawk calls it. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amber Reneé: The... That's, um, one of the first books on witchcraft I ever read was The Spiral Dance. Matt Kosterman: The Spiral Dance. Amber Reneé: By Starhawk, and I just love that phrase. Yeah. I think of it all the time because it isn't a linear path. Matt Kosterman: No. Amber Reneé: No. And there's, there's no end point. Amber Reneé: You're, you're always dancing with the, the healing that you're doing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And there's a, there's a beautiful visual someplace, uh, on the internet of, of a spiral from the side, and it looks like you're going up and down. Mm-hmm. Up and down, up and down, but if you look at it from another angle, you're actually just spiraling up. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And it, it can often feel like you're backsliding. Amber Reneé: Right. Matt Kosterman: And you never backslide. No. You might stay still- Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: for a bit- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: to integrate. Amber Reneé: With that spiral analogy, what is happening when, when we feel like we're backsliding, once we've, like, started and activated a healing journey for ourselves, it's pretty much always actually that you're, you're spiraling around to a familiar experience or a familiar emotion but now with this added wisdom of the healing that you've done so far. Amber Reneé: Yeah, yeah. So then you're going to encounter this old- from familiar experience or emotion from a new, like, spiritual- A new Matt Kosterman: level of awareness ... Amber Reneé: awareness. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: a new awareness. Amber Reneé: Right. And then you can respond to it in a different way, and you most likely are going to notice that your nervous system responds to it in a different way, as well as your mind. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Amber Reneé: Um, and that's the dance. Matt Kosterman: That's the dance. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. It's, and it's, it doesn't end, and, and, and on purpose. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause it's the, it's the whole point. It's the whole point- Matt Kosterman: It's the whole point ... of, of what we're doing here. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. But it's, again, it's this, I think, this, uh, overarching, uh, you know, uh, patriarchal achievement kind of mentality of, like- Mm Matt Kosterman: I need to achieve enlightenment. Yeah. And, and the word, it's actually not an end state. Mm-mm. It's a continuous unfolding. Amber Reneé: Right. That n- there's some- Matt Kosterman: It's almost an enlightening. Like, it's not an enlightenment. Yeah. It's an enlightening. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And- 'Cause you're lightening your load. Amber Reneé: Yes. Matt Kosterman: You're letting go of things- Yes Matt Kosterman: the whole time. Amber Reneé: Yes. And even as you let go of things, you're bringing in something new. There's, um, you know that saying that, like, the universe abhors a vacuum. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, right. Amber Reneé: You know, when you let go of something, you create space for something else- For something else ... to come in. And that's the whole concept around the journey work, actually, and specifically the feeding your demons, is that, you know, you might let go of this, um, personified emotion. Amber Reneé: As you're feeding your demon, you watch it dissolve. Yeah. But then you immediately call in an ally or a supportive energy- Love and light- ... that can Matt Kosterman: take its Amber Reneé: place ... Matt Kosterman: and nectar in an ally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Yeah, 'cause- Matt Kosterman: Beautiful ... Amber Reneé: yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: Mm-hmm. Oh, it's so fun to talk about this stuff. Matt Kosterman: I love talking about this stuff, clearly. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Um. Well, thanks for coming over. Amber Reneé: Yeah. And chatting. Matt Kosterman: Thank Amber Reneé: you so much for having Matt Kosterman: me. Yeah. So yeah, Amber Renee, uh, her business is prismatichealing.com. Yes? Amber Reneé: Yep, prismatichealing.com Dot Matt Kosterman: com. We'll put the links in the, in the bio. So especially for Chicago people, highly recommend to come in and- Amber Reneé: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: have the Amber experience in person. Amber Reneé: Yes. I, I love doing what I do. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amber Reneé: And, um, you know, if you're not in Chicago too, you can check out specifically the guided journeys and the Reiki offerings- Right ... that I have can be done from anywhere. Matt Kosterman: Can be done remotely. Yeah, Reiki can be- Yeah ... anywhere. Amber Reneé: And it's, it's just as powerful. Matt Kosterman: For sure. Amber Reneé: You know? Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: 100%, Amber Reneé: yeah. Yeah. I like, I love doing in-person stuff because I, you know, I, I love touch, but- Matt Kosterman: The touch, yeah ... Amber Reneé: um, had lots of profound experiences- Matt Kosterman: Remotely ... Amber Reneé: over Zoom. Matt Kosterman: Remotely, whether it's, yeah, journey work or- Mm-hmm ... or, or Reiki, yeah. Amber Reneé: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Cool. All Amber Reneé: right. Thank you, Matt. Matt Kosterman: Thanks, Amber. Thanks, everyone for listening, and, uh, we'll come at you next time.