S3 • E4 Ashley Carmen === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt Kosterman, and we're back for another episode of The Permission Slip. I am with Ashley Karman, is a licensed marriage and family counselor and the founder of the Psychedelic Guide Network, known as PGN, where she trains practitioners in the ethics and interior work of guiding others through non-ordinary states. Matt Kosterman: And she's coming to us from lovely Austin, Texas, where I just was two weeks ago. Welcome, Ashley. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Matt, hello, hello. Thank you so much for having me Matt Kosterman: Yeah, thanks for agreeing to be here. Excited about our chat about, uh, all things psychedelics Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Ethics is exciting, especially when it comes to psychedelics , so I'm especially excited myself Matt Kosterman: So yeah, tell us about this. How did-- We, we, we had another guest recently, Neil Gahania, and talked about his Mind Lumen and, uh, his framework, um, ethics and psychedelics. And, and I love that we're having this conversation because it's n- like you said earlier when we were chatting, it's sort of the-- it doesn't get the limelight. Matt Kosterman: It doesn't get the spotlight Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: It's not the sexy Matt Kosterman: it's not this, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: in the room Matt Kosterman: shamans in, in Ecuador or Peru, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: IFS and, you know, all the, all the bells and whistles Matt Kosterman: So yeah, so t-t-tell us a little bit about how, like how, how did you evolve into this? Where did Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: this come from? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah, that, that question, I really, I love that question, and there's always, like, two separate distinct directions that I can take it, right? Because I, being a consciousness facilitator, being in psychedelic medicine, and, like, working with consciousness, I see that I... There were nuggets of this path in my childhood even, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: life of how I ended up here working advocating for ethics in psychedelic facilitation, and then there's also the professional route and just kinda the practical world. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: This is logistically, cognitively how I got here. So I'll keep 'em brief, and I'll give you a little bit of both. And feel free to dive in, and we can unpack whatever comes up for you if you get the ping. Um, yeah, I mean, I, the short to the personal is I grew up in a world that was kind of void of ethics, uh, as a child. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: My parents were in an abusive relationship. It was incredibly dysfunctional. There was no, uh, honor, reverence, respect in how they related to each other. And so I actually, when I was sitting in an ayahuasca experience, one of my per- doing some of my personal work, I, um, it became very clear to me, I connected the dots, that, oh, I did not have ethics as a child, and so here I am as an adult asking the world to have ethics, to be more ethical, and I'm creating more ethics, and I'm now the advocate for ethics. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: So that is a very short summary of, like, personally kind of, like, how it's ingrained, and it's re- It is a personal mission. Like, there's a lot of heart in the work that I'm doing. Um, and professionally, um, you know, I've, being a, a clinically trained psychotherapist, consultation, which is an ethics practice, is required, hundreds and hundreds of hours of it. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Supervision is required. Peer consultation is required. And so, um, it's always been a required practice as a, a licensed professional. And so when I got into the psychedelic space, um, I noticed that that was not the standard, mostly because it's not purely licensed clinicians, which I'm totally on board with and happy that that's not the case. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: It's not just a purely medical space. But a lot of the underground, a lot of the energetic, spiritual, shamanic indigenous, they go kind of, like, by a different code, if you will, or a different law. But, um, a lot of the practitioners that are getting into this work just w- don't have the clinical training, and so I landed here in Austin, Texas, saw all of the beautiful medicine work that was happening, and was really inspired to invite people here in, in my home to come sit with me in my living room to teach them how to engage in consultation, um, because I knew that it would increase the safety. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And there was and still is, sadly, a lot of egregious ethical things happening. Matt Kosterman: Non e- non-ethical things. Ethical Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: yeah, ethical, right. Ethical, precarious Matt Kosterman: things ha- Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: situations. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Right, right, right. Yes, thank you for that. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: ethical misconduct, precariously ethical situations per Kileah. And, um, and so yeah, I was, I was, um, inspired to invite them into my home. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: We engaged in, uh, consultation. I taught it. And the last thing I'll say before I pause is, um, PGN's also a bridge. Like I- we also are a community. These consultation groups are not just for clinical, as I stated. Like, there's the spiritual, the shamanic, the energetic, the more woo-woo practitioners, um, the people that have a totally corporate background that got into this work on their, uh, from a different path, Matt Kosterman: Ja Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: and, and the clinical, and the MDs, and the psychiatrists. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: So PGN's also a bridge, Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: for the different practitioners. Yeah Matt Kosterman: Between the Worlds. And, and you're, you, you spoke just briefly about Kalia, and Kalia Taylor created this inner ethics model, as you, you, you told me earlier, And, and was that something that you trained in, in your, in your psychotherapy training, in your... Or did it come after? Was it, was that after the fact? Matt Kosterman: I don't know Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: I had in my, before my, m- during my clinical training, trained in ethics, Matt Kosterman: Okay. Right Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: um, and, and ethics practices. Inner ethics specifically, I believe I had taken maybe one or two of her courses for continuing education, Matt Kosterman: Got it. Got Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: for CEs. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Um, but I was not into it how I have been into it the last couple years Matt Kosterman: And so, I mean, uh, it, it's funny, I, I came up through sort of the business world. My father was a businessman, is, still is, um, in, in actually medical device marketing. And so-- and I worked for a big company for Eastman Kodak when I got out of college. I was an entrepreneur that and after that. And, um, and I always thought it was, um, interesting that in college both that they would te- that they had, like, ethics courses and entrepreneur courses Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: 嗯。 う Matt Kosterman: gifted with entrepreneurial spirit. It's just who I Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: ーん、うん、うん。 Sure Matt Kosterman: um, to somebody. And I also kind of feel similar-- I mean, and it's just, it's my own ignorance, so it's, this is no, like, you know, diss or that, but, but it's sort of like... mean, I, I, I, hat- hats off to you for recognizing that you didn't have ethics in your life Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: うん。 ம்ம். Matt Kosterman: 'cause I, 'cause it, my, my thought at one point in, in time was like, "Well, how do you teach? Matt Kosterman: You're, like, you're either ethical or you're not. Like, you're either a good person or you're not a good person." So Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: ம்ஹும். Matt Kosterman: it'd be interesting to sort of unpack. O- other people may think the same thing, like, how do you teach somebody ethics? Like, what if, if they're like a, know, i- if they have ill intent, it's not gonna Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: how does that, how does that framework sort-- how does it look? I mean, I can think around things around consent and touch and, you know, those are the sort of the, what, what come to mind. But the, I know it's a very deep space. I've worked in the space myself, both Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah Matt Kosterman: and a giver of, of psychedelic medicine and, um, like you mentioned, I kind of, you know, I got into it. Matt Kosterman: I had this, I had a, a couple of amazing experiences and I'm like, "I wanna do this for people," you know? And I'd had, you know, people tell me that I'd be, like, a good therapist or whatever. I had no training in that at all and, and I've led a number of journeys and all of them have gone... All of, all, one, one was a little dodgy. Matt Kosterman: I was a lit-- I was too tired. I shouldn't have done it. Uh, and it was LSD and it goes a long Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: That's all, yes Matt Kosterman: But anyway, so back to my, like, how do you, how do you define this ethics framework? What does it, what does it look like? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: From the inner ethics model, which is what PGN is now providing, um, and I think is m- the most advanced way of looking at ethics and the most effective way of looking at e- ethics, in two words, it comes down to motivation and intention. Drive... M- motivation and intention, I'll, I'll leave it at that. Drive's a little something a little bit different. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Um, and so inner ethics, as the name implies, is about the inner landscape, the inner atmosphere, the inner motivations to touch, the inner motivations to talk, the inner motivations around the energy behind what you said, the... It's, it's the motivation and the drive behind what happens in not just the journey room, but any relational dynamic, and the awareness of that. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: There's tools to help cultivate the awareness of that. Matt Kosterman: OK Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: and, you know, to compare that to traditional ethics, conventional ethics, how I was raised with ethics professionally, you know, I, d- a lot of, like, co- codes of ethics is, is a very common term and document and what people kind of refer to, and, and they're often just experienced as rules, external codes, external rules, a, a, a guidebook, if you will, of what not to do. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: But it doesn't really help you understand why you had the drive to do what you were gonna do that might have been violating one of these rules. Matt Kosterman: んうん、うんう Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And that is where the gold is. That is where the transformation happens. That is where the shadow work happens, which is kinda I use interchangeably with, like, what we're doing at PGN. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: We're doing a shadow work with psychedelic practitioners, um, is uncovering that so, so people can get really clear in their own inner compass becomes more, um, dialed. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. And, and shadow work for those who may just be tuning in, we've talked about it before, but just, you know, kinda define what's your definition sort of of shadow work? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: The, the unconscious, um, aspects of the psyche Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The stuff you don't wanna look at Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: The stuff you don't wanna look li- look at, the stuff that stays in the blind spots, the stuff that you can't see, Matt Kosterman: んうんうん。 Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: that remain in the shadows, the stuff that you can't see without a peer group or without some kind of reflection, could be a supervisor, mentor, your, your spouse. Matt Kosterman: Sure, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: reflected in a lot of ways Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. So, and so, and, and, and what, what would you say then is the, the ultimate aim for creating, you know, let's say an ethical practitioner? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: What's the ults- Matt Kosterman: uh, like, yeah, like what are the benefits to the p- person then receiving the Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Oh. Incredibly clean containers, Matt Kosterman: Hmm Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: incredibly clear containers, containers that are, um, influenced by the journeyer's material Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: and held by the practitioner, but not muddled with the practitioner's desires, fears, egoic, et cetera, spiritual, et cetera, spiritual fears, spiritual desires, egoic fears, egoic desires. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: There's, there's... It's not muddled with it. You know? It's, it's, um, quite a path. I, I don't, I don't think it exists to say that there would be no interface of thing, uh, you know, with just communication alone. Like, it's constantly riddled with different projections or things going on, Matt Kosterman: Ja, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: right? But, um, and I don't wanna get too abstract, but, um, you know, to a point where, like, you, you can tell that it, it's a really clean container and that they're aware of their stuff enough to where it's not leaking into Matt Kosterman: Yeah, the Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: else's Matt Kosterman: the Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: experience. Matt Kosterman: are aware, yeah. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Exactly Matt Kosterman: and I can see that looking back on, you know, the, the, some of the journeys that I've where, you know, it's like m- m- my desires get projected or transferred onto the person journeying 'cause I had a particular experience, and I want them to have that experience because it was amazing or whatever. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah Matt Kosterman: all the way from, which is fairly benign but, you know, can be a little sticky, all the way Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Oh, 100%. Matt Kosterman: yeah, all the way to I've heard stories of just recently of some 5-MeO practitioners, which is a very powerful DMT for those, um, n- not educated so, so in the know, where that leaves you wide open, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: psychically, and then they're giving them, uh, uh, Christian religious programming on Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: ultimate transference or projection. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Ultimate. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah. And you know, the, the more benign is actually probably the most common thing. And in, in your clinical training, like, that's what... That's one of the things that'll come up is, like, you're new in the space or new in your, in your practice. A lot of supervisors and, uh, peer consultation groups will be like, "Oh, well, don't... Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: You shouldn't have an agenda for the client," and, "Where is your agenda? Is this for you? Is this for them? Who's this in service to?" And, um, it happens all the time, and it's quite common. And it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, but it just means that your projections have gotten into the space, and now you're unconsciously directing, saying things, suggesting things coming from that place. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: That's the motivation now behind it Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it's interesting when I re- reflect on that, uh, the psychotherapy model versus, say, the coaching model, and I just talked about this in my last show with a woman who has a coach on, on her staff, around psychedelics, but, but she defined the difference as, like, psychotherapy tends to look in the past and coaching tends to look in the f- in, in the f- forward, like, how are we... Like, w- and, and I found that to be a bit of my experience was in psychotherapy. I'm trying to see what I'm getting at here for this question. Um, and, and it feel... And I, and I've done some coaching, and I lo- I love to help people, and that's great, and I, I think that, um, that the... I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if... And, and I think there's... God, I don't even know where I'm going with this, actually. Sorry. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: That's okay. I have thoughts already if you want me to pick up. Matt Kosterman: What's that? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: I have thoughts already just based on what you shared. Matt Kosterman: see where I'm Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: It, Matt Kosterman: with it? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: kinda, I mean, yeah, I'm not sure what the, yeah, where the direction of the... I, I feel like I have, I have comments on the context that you were providing for the question that preceded it, but I'm not sure what the question was, but maybe it'll land. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: But I'll, I, I'll respond a little bit to some of the context that you were sharing, and I think that that's such a, it's a very, I, I, what's the word I'm looking for? A cliche, common misnomer myth about psychotherapy. I mean- There, um, I, I don't believe in absolutes. Let me just state that. I don't th- I don't think anything's black and white. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And I think to say that psychotherapy is only focused on, or psychotherapy as a whole is focused on the past is, um, inaccurate. Because we have things like transpersonal psychology, for example, which, you know, doesn't live anywhere. It's just kind of the whole holistic Matt Kosterman: young Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: experience, if you will. Yeah. And, um, and it, it, it depends on the clinician that you have. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: It depends on the practitioner that you have. It depends on the modality and what they're trained in. If we're looking at psychoanalytic, it's gonna be mostly based in the past. The other... And which is probably one of the reasons, 'cause, you know, obviously Freud and psychoanalytic models are kind of a foundation. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: It's where psychotherapy started, but it's not where it's at today. It really has grown. Um, the other reason why I think that that, that myth kind of exists is because, um, psychotherapy is, um, billable. Psychotherapy exists in the insurance model. Psychotherapy has billing codes and ICD codes Matt Kosterman: うんうん。 Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: for, um, billing purposes which only result if there's a diagnosis, if it's, if there's a diagnostic cri- criteria from the DSM. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And if there's a diagnosis, it's likely because there's been a history of something that has led up to these current present-day symptoms. And so the goal, uh, uh, and the diagnosis always results in the lower f- there's lower functioning. They're not functioning. They're not able to... You know, they've, they've been in this state for six months or however long. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Um, and the goal is to get them back to baseline. Matt Kosterman: うん、うん。 Ja, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: sent you here diagnostically and, and resulted in, like, we gotta look at the past and work through the trauma." It's, you know, Matt Kosterman: ja Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: ultimately trauma, to get you back to a functioning before you can even start to think about moving forward in, in optimizing, which i- is coaching a lot of the time. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: So I think that it is safe to say that a lot of, um, coaches are probably best suited, and a lot of coaching is, um, at large best suited for people that are higher functioning or functioning well, that can look forward, that don't need to address serious traumas that have happened in the past. Um, and, and I also, um... Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And again, you know, please ground me. I don't wanna get too abstract. You know, I think it's, time is just an interesting thing, and often when we're working on things in the past, we're impacting the present day and the future. Um, Matt Kosterman: ーん。 Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: and you can kind of, you know, work on these three things all at once even, especially with psychedelic medicine. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: But Matt Kosterman: yeah Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: You know, even like EMDR or different things. Like we're, we're working on historical symptoms that'll propel us better into the present day and the future and allow the person to make, to make it to that goal or, or optimize more. So yeah, it's, it's, it's layered, you know? But I... Matt Kosterman: good way to put it. Yeah, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah, and I do understand, yeah, I, I see where people are going and what they mean when they say, you know, coaching more forward-looking, therapy more backwards Matt Kosterman: but I love, I love the distinction of, you know, you, you gotta get to baseline first before you can look to the, you know, to the future. 'Cause I did my share of psychotherapy, and I like to beat up on it. I mean, I was in it for, know, 12-plus years, and I was on the drugs, and it felt Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah Matt Kosterman: uh, like I was standing still, if not moving backwards. Matt Kosterman: But ultimately, it was the foundation that enabled me to, you know... I, I had stuff I needed to get through. It just happened to be a lot. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Sure. And, and talk therapy is so limited also. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ja Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: You know, I also think, I mean, I, I, um, appreciate psychotherapy and s- e- everything I've just said, I also see where it, it has its downfalls. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, limitations. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: You know, we're staying incredibly intellectual if we're just engaging in, in talk therapy, and there's a lot of different things you can do. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: You can do Hakomi, you can do more somatic therapy. There's other things, right? It's not all talk therapy. But, um, mostly where we're, what we're moving into, I think, as a society and as a culture is we're coming back into our bodies. It's not just talking things through and having this process. Sometimes there is no process 'cause we're even, we're going into quantum Matt Kosterman: う Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: spaces and we're doing quantum leaping, so there is no Matt Kosterman: ん。 Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: process. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: We're just leaping timelines, depend- if you wanna get that far out there. But as a whole, I think we're really recognizing that, hey, the body matters, energy matters, somatics matter. Sometimes it's non-verbal and there's nothing to be said, and better frameworks are coming out versus just staying psycholytic, just talking about things, Matt Kosterman: right Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: which might allow people to continue looping and Matt Kosterman: For sure. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: no, I love talking about timelines. In fact, I'm reading Vadim Zeland's book right now called "Transurfing Reality." Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Oh, nice. I listened to that while, a little while ago. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it's pretty intense. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: That's an intense one. Yeah, it's a trip. Matt Kosterman: It's a total trip, though. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah Matt Kosterman: excited. Did you do Tufti the Priestess as well? Did you ever listen, read that Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: No, no Matt Kosterman: another one of his that's, uh, it's similar, you know, similar model, sort of a... It's a, piece of Transurfing. Like, it's a, um... But it, it, it all comes down to, and we-- I've talked about this over and over on the show, and you, you mentioned it, is embodiment. Like, what we're, we're... Our, our, our, our energy that is us is in this dense physical plane to Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: உம். Matt Kosterman: an embodied experience, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: உம், ஹம். Matt Kosterman: and all of our programming, for the most part, is all up in the mind, and it's... Society has got us all up in our heads Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Sure. Yeah. The cognitive culture Matt Kosterman: in, in the Western, in the Western model. I mean, certainly the shamans and the indigenous peoples and what are connected to the land and connected to their bodies Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Um, so what was your experience? How did you... was your... What, what led you to psychedelic work? Matt Kosterman: Like to, to Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: உம் Matt Kosterman: experiences? How, what was your first, uh, your first medicine, and why did you... You know, what were you suffering with, and why did you finally go, "Oh my God, I wanna take this mind-altering drug that everybody's told me would melt my brain"? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: My first psychedelic experience was in sixth grade. Matt Kosterman: Nice Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: It was psilocybin, and there wasn't much thought behind it. I had an older cousin that thought it'd be a good idea to put some mushrooms, psychedelic mushrooms, on a pizza. And so we ate it on a pizza when I was in sixth grade. I was living in the Bay Area at the time, so we drove from Vacaville to Fairfield, and when we got to Fairfield, we watched The Cell with Jennifer Lopez. Matt Kosterman: Okay. I've never seen that, but I'm sure that was Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: I don't recommend it. It's dark. Matt Kosterman: Dark Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Dark. Um, and I remember looking in the mirror and tripping out, like what I was seeing in the mirror, and then I remember my cousin, uh, saying, "Drink more milk, you know, it'll help diffuse it or get rid of it," and it, it was a mess, it was a mess. So that was actually my fir- very first psychedelic experience, and, um, Matt Kosterman: Not a lot of ethics involved. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: not a lot of ethics involved. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Certainly no guide, no practitioner, none of that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Um, and, uh, and then I got into my professional career, and I worked, actually. Bravo to you. I hear that you're... I don't know if you identify with being in recovery or, but you had a stint with addiction. Is that right? Did I hear you correctly? Matt Kosterman: Uh, I mean, I, I have been sober. I haven't had a drink in 25 years. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Okay Matt Kosterman: it wasn't, like, debilitating kind of a... It, it was, but it wasn't controllable, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: I see Matt Kosterman: w- you know, I had a one-year-old and, and it wasn't... It was like one drink turned into three Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Got it Matt Kosterman: and it was just like, yeah, I know. And I was on antidepressants at the time, and I thought, "Well, this is Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Sure. Matt Kosterman: Why am I..." And I was paying Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Common cocktail Matt Kosterman: Yeah, w- I was paying out of pocket 'cause I had a small business and it was our own, you know. And so I'm like, "Why am I paying all this money to try to get out of this darkness? And I'm gonna take, I'm gonna pay to take this antidepressant, and then I'm gonna pay to drink a depressant." Matt Kosterman: It just seemed kind of dumb. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah, a little counterintuitive, but yeah, so many people. But you got out of that. Congratulations. Awesome. Matt Kosterman: yeah Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Um, but I, I spent a couple years working in, uh, rehab, inpatient rehab with women who were suffering from addiction and dual diagnosis. They also had a severe, severe mental health and, and addiction. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And, um, some of the patients that I would see in the house, excuse me, um, would come in with a substance-induced psychosis because of psychedelics. They had taken too much LSD. They had eaten too many mushrooms. They... And, you know, context, they were also very under-resourced people with a lot of predispositions. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: They were... This was a government-funded program. There was a lot of other things that matter that caused one to go into a substance-induced psychosis, temporary or, you know, chronic diagnosis. And so anywho, I saw that and I was like, "Oh, I'm never touching a psychedelic. Like, I do not want that to happen," kind of like chalked it up. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And then, and then I had a friend, um... And this was, you know, not too long ago. This was in my, when I was in my late 20s. I'm now 40. And, um, but ear- very early in my, um, therapy career. And then I had a friend at the time who just could not stop eating mushrooms. She was seeking, I don't know what she was seeking, but she was seeking. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And, um, we had to have, like, a little intervention with her at one time, and, um, I had some resistance to it, but she always came out of it and sometimes enjoyed it, and then I just started becoming curious. I'm like, "Okay, maybe these aren't, you know, they don't only lead to substance-induced psychotic episodes. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Maybe there's something else here." And, and I started becoming curious and open to it, and then UCSF started doing, like, a ketamine thing and the psychedelics. I'm like, I really got the call. Matt Kosterman: んうん、 Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: I really got the call. And, um, I was also just comparing the research. Working in addiction and recovery, people are just guinea pigs for the pharmaceutical company. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: They're so overmedicated. I went to a higher functioning location at Kaiser Permanente and did corporate medicine stuff there, and same thing. Pharmaceutical in- industry was just running rampant. I mean, these were people that weren't even suffering from an addiction. They were still being thrown pills. Matt Kosterman: ん。 Mm-hmm. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: with the, the medical model and medical systems at that point and ready for something that worked and that was more effective. And then I'm like, "Okay, I wanna try mushrooms. I'm ready." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Not on Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: So yeah, not on a pizza and definitely not watching The Cell. Matt Kosterman: Right Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And I, um, met my, my mushroom man, my now husband, and the father of my child. Matt Kosterman: Oh, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: forthcoming child, I should mention, right? You said you're, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Oh no, this is my first Matt Kosterman: sec- this... You o- you have more. Okay, you already have one Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: No, no, no. This is my first. Matt Kosterman: having, you're, you're, you're pregnant with your first? Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yes, I'm pregnant with my first. Matt Kosterman: with, yes, just to Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Matt Kosterman: so the mushroom man Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: So I was, yeah, for my birthday, s- put the intention out to the universe. I'm like, "I am ready to have this experience." And, uh, a day before my birthday, I met my husband, and he was the, uh, a coach, first of all. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: We're gonna talk about coaching. Matt Kosterman: Right. Uh-huh Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Um, serial entrepreneur, and a psychonaut. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Psychonaut, like Matt Kosterman: I got, yeah Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: stacks, you know, the, lots of Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: medicines, psychedelics, Matt Kosterman: If a Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: very well-versed Matt Kosterman: If a little's good, more must be better. That's kinda my motto. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Yeah. Yeah, when done responsibly, for sure. Matt Kosterman: Right, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: there's, there's levels to it. Matt Kosterman: There are Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: There's levels to this game. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Um, and, uh, he was the awesome, a- an awesome guide for me, and came in at the right time and introduced me, and we set intentions, and I... We were in Tahoe, actually, and so we got to go hiking on the m- it was just, uh, super ideal. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: And, um, yeah, that's, that, that is what kicked off my relationship to psychedelic medicine per- on a personal note Matt Kosterman: On a personal note. So I'm just gonna pause. There's a, a, a... Let me just put a mark. You're, you're running out of space on your hard drive. I'm getting a message. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Oh, Matt Kosterman: Um, Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: interesting Matt Kosterman: yeah, it says it's critically low, so And it's gonna start to get really slow on your end 'cause it won't be able to, to... You, you need about 100 gigs of free space. Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Okay. Matt Kosterman: Are you on a Mac or a PC? A Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: Mac Matt Kosterman: Mac. Uh, maybe empty your trash, maybe if that hasn't been done in a Ashley Carmen, LMFT & Founder of PGN: I actually emptied my trash today. Software update, remind me later about that. I have this Mac cleanup. I'll get my husband up here to do it. I wonder if this will clear up enough space. I don't know if it'll clear up enough space. Um Matt Kosterman: So, okay, so this is amazing. So you, you put out, you, you, you put out to the universe that you're ready for mushrooms, to do 'em the right way. You get connected with a coach who, um, is also a psychonaut, and in Tahoe, one of the most beautiful places in the world, taking mushrooms Ashley Carmen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Epic. Matt Kosterman: Epic Ashley Carmen: Epic. Matt Kosterman: hiking in the mountains. Ashley Carmen: Right Matt Kosterman: did you hike the whole time? Did you sit? Did you Ashley Carmen: Yeah, we went, we went for, um, like, an, a nature hike into, into the Heavenly village, the trail that's behind there on that Heavenly mountain, and it was, I mean, stunning. My friend lives on that mountain, and so, um, we're so fortunate that we've been... We go back every year, and it's like our, our little pilgrimage. Ashley Carmen: We got engaged there. We got married there. We met there, and, um, very, yeah, sentimental and nostalgic for us. But it's such a... It's just a pristine forest. I mean, what a way to connect with nature and to experience psilocybin. And so that kicked off my personal pursuit, and then I'm like, "You know, I think I wanna study, I wanna study this professionally. Matt Kosterman: Ja, Ashley Carmen: This might be used." And so I found a couple schools, studied with MAPS MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. I did School of Consciousness Medicine, studied psilocybin guiding with them. They teach the Mazatec lineage, and, Matt Kosterman: угу. Ashley Carmen: which you may be familiar with Matt Kosterman: I, I've heard of it, yeah, yeah. Ashley Carmen: O-okay Matt Kosterman: yeah. But I, wait, I have, I have a question about ethics and your husband Ashley Carmen: Yeah, yes. Matt Kosterman: So how did that work? Ashley Carmen: I have no idea where this is going. Is, is what? Matt Kosterman: How did that work? Ashley Carmen: Well, it was, yeah, it was, it was a personal experience. It wasn't a pro- I didn't hire him. Matt Kosterman: Oh, you didn't hire him. Got it. Ashley Carmen: I didn't hire him. Yeah, no, no, no, I didn't hire him. I got, I got lucky. We actually, we, we matched on Bumble. Matt Kosterman: Perfect. Ashley Carmen: It was very intentionally like, oh, we're checking each other out to see. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Okay, very beautiful. Yeah, I Ashley Carmen: And so that's how it came in Matt Kosterman: to clarify 'cause, like, for the people out there, Ashley Carmen: Yes Matt Kosterman: meeting somebody... And I w- I went through this. In fact, I was just on her podcast, uh, uh, probably well-aired by this time. Um, but Josephine and I met in a mushroom ceremony, and we were off to the races, know, right there, and it was very expansive and amazing and, um, and then it wasn't, and that's fine. Matt Kosterman: Um, you know, no harm came from it. But I, I do see that in the spiritual and psychedelic realms. Um, and that's a big thing in therapy. Like you, as a therapist, I think you gotta be at least a year of no contact. Two? Two years of no contact. Ashley Carmen: Two years, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: Excuse me. Yeah, um, is, were you and Josephine, is that your now partner? Matt Kosterman: No, no, no. It was a couple years ago. Ashley Carmen: Okay. Were you both participants, or was one of you... Matt Kosterman: we were both participants, Ashley Carmen: Okay. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: little bit different, but Ashley Carmen: there's... A little bit different, but also still some things to consider, for sure. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen: I will share, just to full circle the story with my husband, before we dosed anything, he gave me a disclaimer, preface, very responsibly, Matt Kosterman: う Ashley Carmen: said, "These substances can lead to intense bonding, Matt Kosterman: んうんうんうん。 Right, Ashley Carmen: um, because, you know, he, he was doing his ethical due diligence at that point, you know, 'cause it's, we've just met and we're getting to know each other, and this may, you know... Ashley Carmen: I want you to have that context, have that going into this, and you make your own decision. Um, so I, I really appreciated that, and I was like, "I'm a big girl. I got this. Matt Kosterman: I got Ashley Carmen: I'll figure I can sort through. I'm a psychotherapist. Matt Kosterman: right. Ashley Carmen: I'm a mental ninja. I'm trained in my own psyche. Let's go." Matt Kosterman: You've been, you've, you've found a lot of the shadows. Ashley Carmen: Yes. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: yeah. Ashley Carmen: Not all Matt Kosterman: I mean, the, the medicines accelerate and amplify whatever Ashley Carmen: Угу, Matt Kosterman: up, uh, Ashley Carmen: угу Matt Kosterman: and often when there is attraction, it can be amplified and hence the im- hence the importance of your work and in, in, in training people to not do this Ashley Carmen: Yes. Yeah, it's incredibly important, um, to, to have these boundaries. It's incredibly important for a practitioner to be able to hold what is being amplified, um, and what is being projected onto them. It's incredibly important for a practitioner to know what, where their shadow lies, where their susceptibilities may lie. Ashley Carmen: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Угу Ashley Carmen: Um, and, you know, this is very Freudian and psychoanalytic, to remain the blank slate, to remain an object worthy of being projected onto, and that includes sexual projection, erotic projection, romantic projection, relational projection, parental, paternal, maternal, savior, Matt Kosterman: Угу Ashley Carmen: authority, you know, gatekeep, like all of it. Ashley Carmen: It, it really... If somebody's projecting onto me that, you know, I'm, I'm, um, helping them and they've never received this much help, and it's such a life-changing experience, and I'm so good at my work, and I have this need in my life personally where I don't feel useful, Matt Kosterman: うんうん、 Ashley Carmen: and it's, you know, I, I'd like to feel more needed, then, you know, that's the perfect... Ashley Carmen: If I wasn't doing my work, I'd be able... I'd, I'd run awa- run with that, and Matt Kosterman: Perfect Ashley Carmen: things would be in service to me and no longer s- Matt Kosterman: am- yeah, Ashley Carmen: Yes. Yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen: And things would no longer be in service to the journeyer at that point. I'd be in my own personal material and shadow stuff about it, and that happens in all of these other situations, including romantic Matt Kosterman: Sure, sure, sure. So how does-- So, so let's say I'm out shopping for psychedelic-assisted therapy, underground or otherwise, how, in, in my process, how-- what am I looking for? What are red flags? Ashley Carmen: If you're shopping around, I would invite you to have a list of questions, first of all, to, to ask. And so some of the questions, and then, and maybe these, this will lead into like the flags, to answer more directly. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ashley Carmen: I would, I would ask, uh, if they have a code of ethics or what their ethics practice is. I would ask if they have any accountability Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ashley Carmen: in their Matt Kosterman: In their Ashley Carmen: practice. Matt Kosterman: in Ashley Carmen: Yeah, in their communities or community accountabilities or anybody Matt Kosterman: to Ashley Carmen: that they talk to. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: Yeah, an elder, a supervisor. Who, who do they talk to their work about, if anybody at all? A red flag would be operating in isolation. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ashley Carmen: A red flag would be somebody that doesn't have a code or hasn't thought about ethics or doesn't have an ethics practice. Ashley Carmen: Um, I've actually gone so far as to recommend to our community, and I do this with if, if I'm in this position, I share my l- it's a living code. It's not just a code of ethics, it's a living code of virtue, actually. I, I prefer virtue over ethics. Um, but it's a living code of virtues that I'll share with, and it's kinda my commitment and my work and where I'm at with presence, humility, reverence, reciprocity, discernment, my own work. Ashley Carmen: Um, I think that that should be a standard along with consents and intakes, um, is sharing that. And so I would ask for those, yeah, for those, for those few items, along with, you know, I don't know if we need, in terms of ethics, that, that's how far I would go. But in, in addition to training, background, and how many years and things like that. Ashley Carmen: If something goes wrong Matt Kosterman: Yeah, who are we, who are we gonna call? Ashley Carmen: He has a safety plan Matt Kosterman: 'cause Ghostbusters not gonna help you. Um, Ashley Carmen: Like, well, when you go to jail, Matt Kosterman: right? Ashley Carmen: like, oh, you call 911 Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. what are your thoughts on... 'Cause I, I went through this. I, I initially was, um, sitting, guiding, whatever you wanna call it, uh, solo, and then, and then I brought in, uh, a woman to do it with me because I liked the balanced energy and I liked the accountability, you know, the accountability and the, the safety. Matt Kosterman: Um, do you, do you see this as a model? You seeing mostly solo practitioners? there Ashley Carmen: Yeah, I don't, and I'll clarify when I say solo, like operating solo, I think it's okay to, to facilitate solo. W- yeah, what I mean is like operating on an island and not having anything outside of your facilitation that you're connected to Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: as far as peers go. Matt Kosterman: Peers Ashley Carmen: better if you have a co-facilitator. I think that that's a great model. Matt Kosterman: Угу Ashley Carmen: I think that it's, um, I think that solo practitioners can hold the space really well. Um, and, uh, assuming that they're really well-balanced in their own masculine/feminine, I, I like co- co-facilitators, especially male/female Matt Kosterman: Угу. Ashley Carmen: bec- for that reason, so that we can get the maternal projection, we can get the paternal projection, um, easily. Ashley Carmen: And, and that's not to say that it doesn't happen with a solo practitioner. Some people may also still, if you're a more a, a male who's more maternal or a, um, female, a woman who's more paternal, you may still get some of these other projections. But, um, yeah, I think it's a great model. Um, and, um, not necessary, but- Matt Kosterman: yeah. I, I didn't wanna make it necessary. Just I was, Ashley Carmen: Yeah Matt Kosterman: called to it for the safety and for the... And 'cause I also saw my own weaknesses in terms of sort of an intuition Ashley Carmen: Yeah Matt Kosterman: my desire to be in the doing energy as opposed Ashley Carmen: Nice. Yes Matt Kosterman: 'cause sometimes you do need that, just like, "Okay, no, let's just move on," like, this is Ashley Carmen: Right. Matt Kosterman: Um, Ashley Carmen: in six to eight hours, but plus, I mean, if you're working with LSD, you're looking at 12 Matt Kosterman: Yeah, no, just one time with that. That was not-- That Ashley Carmen: Yeah, I wouldn't make that... Although it's happening more and more. I see things about LSD facilitators and LSD coming online. But, Matt Kosterman: Ja Ashley Carmen: you need those breaks too, right? Matt Kosterman: Right. Ashley Carmen: You need those breaks, and, um, that's, yeah, I, I- boredom may come up or frustration or physical pain or what have you. Ashley Carmen: Like, there's just some natural human things to tend to where you can't be completely on for those six to eight hours, so it's really good to have that relief person for that also Matt Kosterman: Yeah. No, it's, uh, it's energetically draining. I mean, it's rewarding work and, and I love to see, you know, people had some great experiences and, and it's a lot 'cause you gotta set up, you gotta set everything up, you gotta hold the space, you gotta be Ashley Carmen: Yeah Matt Kosterman: you're holding some of their energy and, and, um, um, it Ashley Carmen: A lot of their en- yeah, you're, you are also the container. Matt Kosterman: The container, yeah Ashley Carmen: Like, I really view practitioners and, and facilitators as the container in the room. They, you, you are holding the space. You're not doing the work, you're not responsible, right, the medicine. Like, you're, you're to support and collaborate with the medicine and this person developing their relationship with the medicine, um, and letting that take the lead. Ashley Carmen: But as far as the container goes, you are the container. Matt Kosterman: it, right Ashley Carmen: So the energetic hygiene of the space is gonna be largely dependent on your own personal energetic hygiene, um, and the work that you're doing or have or haven't done Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, and I, you know, for the record, I was always working with supervision at a therapist, you know, the whole Ashley Carmen: Nice Matt Kosterman: talk about stuff and, and, you know, a, Ashley Carmen: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: a Ashley Carmen: I'm gonna investigate you. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Look into me, will you? Ashley Carmen: I'm ethical, by the way. Matt Kosterman: Just Ashley Carmen: It happens. Matt Kosterman: you. Ashley Carmen: Yeah, confirmed Matt Kosterman: red flag, and this has come up in the discussions I know in the, the, the boards that we're on together, is the, uh, of they don't tell you what they're gonna give you. They don't tell you what the medicine is. There's that one community in, in Ashley Carmen: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Matt Kosterman: Um, Ashley Carmen: around that or are you just... I'm sorry, how did you- Matt Kosterman: uh, no, I'm just stating... Matt Kosterman: That, that's a red flag that we didn't, that we Ashley Carmen: Oh, yes. Yeah Matt Kosterman: if anybody's gonna say, "Trust me, I know how much to give you," or, you know, Ashley Carmen: Right Matt Kosterman: "I'm not gonna tell you. It's a special medicine. It's my own concoction," and Ashley Carmen: One of my, I mean, I also, thanks to Ayahuasca, which is a medicine I went really deep with for a year and a, a year and a half and studied with, studied facilitation with, was Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ashley Carmen: amazing. A lot of gifts from that space. One of the gifts was these 11 embodied virtues, Matt Kosterman: Mm. Talk about those. Yeah Ashley Carmen: um, that I am working on first and foremost for myself as a practitioner, right? Ashley Carmen: To embody. Um, but have wr- written on, and I have links on the website t- if people wanna learn more about it. Um, but one of those virtues is sovereignty. And so when somebody does not tell you what you're taking or tells you to externalize your trust and forgo your better caution or desire to know about something that you're consuming, I would really challenge the sovereignty. Ashley Carmen: And where are you ... I feel like that, that's not, it's a lack of sovereignty. We're not honoring sovereignty. Sovereignty has been lost. You're not honoring this person as a sovereign being to make their own decisions. You're now stepping into a space, and this medicine returns us to our own authority. We're being returned to our own authority to make our own decisions, to take more responsibility. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen: And it's a very reverent ... Reverence is another one of these virtues. Um, it's a very reverent thing to get to know the medicine, to get to know how much, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Ashley Carmen: know what type of SAS or MD or what- whatever molecule is that's expanding your consciousness. It's, it's a very reverent thing to become intimate with, um, with that relationship, and you need, you need some of those details, and you should, yeah, just general consent and be informed about what you're consenting to. Ashley Carmen: So sovereignty, authority, consent, these are all things that, uh, I believe are tied into that, um, decision to not tell somebody. And yeah, it's a very ethically precarious situation not telling somebody what they're taking. Red flag for sure Matt Kosterman: flag. Yeah. What about in terms of, um, what are your thoughts on group ceremonies and, and ratios of space holders to, uh, recipients, to journey- journeyers, Ashley Carmen: Угу Matt Kosterman: trippers? Ashley Carmen: I, hmm Ashley Carmen: I don't know why, why ayahuasca's coming so up so much in this recording. It typically doesn't. But, um, you know, I was really fortunate where I sat with, um... It basically had like a, a one to two. Like, there was a fac- one facilitator for every two participants. There would be about, yeah, about 14 people and a team of 7 Matt Kosterman: Ja Ashley Carmen: to hold the space. Ashley Carmen: A team. Play, you know, all live music. I mean, this was a really, really, really epic, um, container, and held very well. Um, he had very high standards, the ayahuasquero, the page who was serving the medicines. And so, um, that's like the golden standard that I really, that I hang onto. And I think that there's some context, especially when it comes to ayahuasca, there are some churches like the Daime that, you know, it's not... Ashley Carmen: What's the context? There's, it's not exact- I mean, Matt Kosterman: It's Ashley Carmen: exactly a deep dive. You're not on the, on a mat, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, Ashley Carmen: know? It's not all... Matt Kosterman: on the mat Ashley Carmen: Exactly. It's not a fully facilitated, these are, there's dancing, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: moving around. Matt Kosterman: lighter doses Ashley Carmen: Yeah, I, yeah, I'm not entirely sure. I haven't been to one. But I think so, lighter doses. Ashley Carmen: It's a different, their context is a little bit different. So when it comes to those spaces, I think there's, there's some nuances there. But in general, when we're talking about the facilitator pool, which, um, and the groups, all of the work that's happening like modern day, underground, above ground in the, in the USA, I, I, I think that, um, yeah, like 1 to 3 would be max, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: in term like Matt Kosterman: to three, and that was w- with psilocybin and then MDMA and ketamine, Ashley Carmen: Right Matt Kosterman: back-to-back nights Ashley Carmen: Yeah. To, to stay really attuned, you know, to have each practitioner assigned to, like, three people, that would be max. I think anything beyond, you're, you're, you're missing some things or some opportunities or... And it's, again, you don't have to be comp- context matters. I think that in group work, a lot of people are doing their own work, so, Matt Kosterman: Right Ashley Carmen: know, attention can be split in that way Matt Kosterman: Yeah. you any, any thoughts around-- Uh, this question just came to me. It's not ever popped up before, but let's say I'm gonna go do a group ceremony. Um, thoughts on discerning, uh, that if it's your, it's your people, like what are the other people, like talking to the, talking to the leader about, "Okay, what are some of the other people? What were their intake forms look-" Like not, without getting specifics, but let's say that just coming in 'cause my life is kinda bland or whatever, and I go into this container that's got seven people who are battling major addictions. I'm just Ashley Carmen: Угу Matt Kosterman: something out of my ass here. Like does that ever, does that ever come up? Matt Kosterman: It hasn't for me. I Ashley Carmen: as a problem Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I've just, I just trusted the containers that I went into, and everybody had a, a, a variety of Ashley Carmen: Yeah. Everybody's on their journey. Matt Kosterman: Ja Ashley Carmen: And I, I think it's divine. You found yourself in the circle you found yourself in for a reason. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right. Yeah. Ashley Carmen: That's the unfolding. There's something there for you. Maybe you never struggled with addiction or, you know, it's... But I imagine on their journey, there's something else that these individuals have experienced that you can relate to, or there's some overlap, or some grief that triggered an addiction, or some relationship with a parent that you can, you know, something. Ashley Carmen: So Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah Ashley Carmen: yeah, I'd find the, the... I, I really tend to rely on, like, the, the perfection of what is because it is Matt Kosterman: It's ha- it's happening and coming together perfectly. Ashley Carmen: Right Matt Kosterman: Um, and then going to the, going to the other, the, the, the other extreme of journeying alone Ashley Carmen: Угу Matt Kosterman: with a substance, say like, like, like psilocybin. I've had this discussion with people before. what are your, what are your thoughts on, on solo journey, solo journeys? Ashley Carmen: I think it can be amazing. I think what, what a better way to, no better way to develop a relationship with the medicine and to get to know it. Now, there are some outliers in a small percentage of the population that I would not advise that for Matt Kosterman: You, such as? Ashley Carmen: Such as, um, uh, I guess just going to exclusionary criteria. Ashley Carmen: Pe- people that have, um, a, a family disposition of psychotic disorders or schizophrenia, or people that are in a suicidal state, or people that are in crisis, Matt Kosterman: うん、 Ashley Carmen: people that are suffering, that have suffered from manic episodes or, Matt Kosterman: yeah Ashley Carmen: bipolar. Um, anything, like extreme end, extreme end, I'd say that there are some outliers 'cause things can get triggered if somebody's already, um, suicidal, things can get intense. Matt Kosterman: yeah. And, and that's, that's even exclusionary for even supervised work in many Ashley Carmen: Yes. Matt Kosterman: less dropping it on your own. Ashley Carmen: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: that, I would, you know... And, and it's hard because those people are at the end of their rope usually, you know? And they're like, Matt Kosterman: Ja. Ashley Carmen: "Give me anything." Like, so what, how co- You'd think mushrooms would be great i- a great idea, but, you know, if I'm being extra cautious here, then yeah, I think that these, these people require a lot more resourcing and support in other ways, and actually psychedelics might not be the answer for them. Matt Kosterman: Right Ashley Carmen: You know, I mean, if it's the last stop, sh- yeah, I, okay, but that's pretty dire. But in general, there's some other things I think that need to get stabilized first before I'd advise somebody like that to do, Matt Kosterman: To do Ashley Carmen: an experience on their own Matt Kosterman: I mean, maybe, uh, maybe ketamine for suicidal ideation, depending on the, Ashley Carmen: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: but, Ashley Carmen: Yes Matt Kosterman: the psychoses and the schizophrenia and those kind of things, you're, you're playing with fire. Ashley Carmen: That's right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah Ashley Carmen: Yeah. But the rest of the public I think is, it's, it's, if you can find well-sourced medicine and, and have enough education, which has been the problem up until I think recently. Now I think there's a lot more education out there about psychedelic. If you can set yourself up appropriately, like it's, um, it can be really, really fruitful. Ashley Carmen: And, and if you're a diligent person, I mean, the... And then we'll find the people that will keep journey hop and keep having these experiences, but they don't integrate, right? They don't get anything from it, and that's, that's something different. Um, but yeah, I think that it's possible Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And so it's-- And, and I imagine you work with people on the integration side as well. Ashley Carmen: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: Yeah Matt Kosterman: yeah, which for the uninitiated is the, the work that you do after the journey, um, in normal consciousness to talk about, you know, talk about that, like what, talk about what comes up. What are, what are your integration sort of... What are you, what are you doing in integration? Ashley Carmen: I mean, it's so different for everybody. It really just depends on what comes up. Um, I love elements. I tend to rely on the elements, earth, water, instruments, air, um, earthing, nature. Um, yeah, I'm getting more and more into, like, dietas. I haven't... Obviously I'm not holding anyone for anybody, but, like, I like referring people to, like, "Oh, the, the rose came through. Ashley Carmen: Like, you might consider, like, a rose diet", and Matt Kosterman: Okay Ashley Carmen: learning more about the plants and medicines in that way. Um, I love elem- yeah, the elements, um, can come into integration. Um, yeah, whatever insights and epiphanies came through, like, how, how is that gonna be best served in your life now? What does that integration look like? Ashley Carmen: Um, and it's Matt Kosterman: Yeah. How are you gonna bring it into your life? Ashley Carmen: Right Matt Kosterman: And what, do you have a sort of a, um, a template for, like, a recommended number? Let's say that, let's say I just sat, had a nice big mushroom journey and by myself or even, you know, in a group or whatever, and whole kinds of stuff came up and now what, what, what are you sort of... Matt Kosterman: I- it all over the board in terms of how many times you, you, you wanna see somebody you think is useful? Is there a, you know, does it, does it fall off after three, four sessions? Ashley Carmen: I mean, the work can continue un- to unfold for years, Matt Kosterman: Mm Ashley Carmen: really. Um, I was trained... I, I r- default to how I was trained, and I initially started doing what's called bubble work, where there's three prep, the journey day, and then three integration. Matt Kosterman: Okay Ashley Carmen: I don't think that's enough. I don't, I don't think that's enough. Ashley Carmen: That's a, that's a bubble. Um- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you're, it's too tight. The, the Ashley Carmen: Gih. Iya Matt Kosterman: the three integration, the three prep is probably adequate for prep Ashley Carmen: Yeah, and it comes down to preference. Some people really like to have a lot of rapport and have been seeing this person, like maybe doing therapy. Some therapists that I know that are working in this space, they, they only work with clients that they've been working with for several months or maybe over a year, and then they enter into this kind of a container. Ashley Carmen: I think that, um, if you're a really well-versed, clean practitioner and have experience in supervision and consult- like, you... It can be done properly. Also, depending on the client, right? Some people maybe shou- should be ruled out for this type of work- Yeah ... um, if they're doing like deeper, deeper work. But yeah, I think preparation has been okay at three at a, at minimum. Ashley Carmen: Um, there's always more to do, and, and it turn- it turns out to be like six weeks worth of, of a relationship. So, um, you know, what's ideal? Uh, yeah, those are my minimums. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and Ashley Carmen: three and three. Matt Kosterman: is that something that shows up in your framework? Like if you're looking for practitioners, like you need to offer or you need to offer something. 'Cause you know, you do, you get the people who just like trippers, right? You just show Ashley Carmen: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: trip, you know, somebody Ashley Carmen: Yeah, or even practitioners that will guide you in a healing journey and just give you one preparation, dose you with mushrooms, and then give you one integration and see you later. Matt Kosterman: you later. Right, Ashley Carmen: Yeah. But th- there's a responsibility when you open somebody up like that, right? To see where they're at. And so if somebody needs more integration, or if they're destabilized, or if we've opened something up that hasn't closed enough yet... Ashley Carmen: Also, I, I like to make sure that I'm working with people, when I'm doing bubble work, that have other practitioners that they're seeing. Matt Kosterman: うん、 Ashley Carmen: They have a therapist. They have somebody else that they're gonna return to to continue the work if I don't continue it with them. Um, and if something large has opened up, I will continue to offer more integration sessions. Ashley Carmen: Um, but that, for the bubble work, I think actually I'm glad that I, yeah, remembered that. That's one of, like, the requirements is you have somebody else that you're seeing, another coach or another therapist, that you can do your personal work with as we're, we're doing this Matt Kosterman: So yeah, so like a, it could be a, a potential red flag of you're go- you're talking to somebody and they don't sort of ask that question, like, "Are you seeing somebody else?" 'Cause you don't wanna, you know, you're not gonna take somebody in who shows up, fills out your intake form, and has no supportive community at all, Ashley Carmen: Right Matt Kosterman: just... Matt Kosterman: You could be out there floating in never, never land Ashley Carmen: Yes. You want somebody that's interested in your aftercare. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen: What does the aftercare look like? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, so what else? What else, what else can we, can we add to this? What else have I not, what have I not asked you that you wanna Ashley Carmen: Yeah, I th-, you know, the, we've covered inner ethics, we've talked about peer consultation. I'm not sure what your audience would prefer. It sounds like people that are really kind of getting into maybe psychedelic space or interested in it, learning- Matt Kosterman: a whole range. I mean, it's from psychedelics to, uh, spiritual work to body work to channeling to financial advice, you know, spiritual financial Ashley Carmen: yeah Matt Kosterman: It's a whole, it's a whole range. Um, are you working at all, uh, have you worked at all in the past with couples, uh, like with, with, uh, MDMA? Matt Kosterman: I Ashley Carmen: I've done some couples work, yeah. Matt Kosterman: work. Ashley Carmen: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen: that's a really beautiful process, too, watching two partners open up to each other in that, in that sense. You know, I will share that one, one thing that was coming through as we were exploring, what else is there to share, um, in light of all the FDA regulations, and I don't know how... Ashley Carmen: I'd be curious your thoughts on this as well. Um, what I've found that's been important for me to share a name these days is that, you know, the, the f- psychedelic experiences are not just medical, right? They're also spiritual. They're also about optimizing. Yeah, there's a physical component for sure. Um, and the FDA is here to regulate medical drugs, prescriptions. Ashley Carmen: And so what I've been seeing lately in the psychedelic space is a lot of people are getting really up in arms about who's gonna be included and not included when it comes to the FDA. And I've been reminding people that the FDA is only one umbrella. You know, they can only really govern one aspect of this work. Ashley Carmen: And then we have religious freedom exemptions, the DEA, all these other governing bodies I don't even know. I think that more need to be developed. Um, I think we need a governing body for coaches that are possibly working with, with psychedelics that can standardize things and create regulations around things and reporting structures if something goes wrong. Ashley Carmen: But, um, yeah, I think to lump the whole experience, all of psychedelics being used for all the different case uses into FDA is, like, a real, um, limitation and, and, and blind spot and just kind of presumption that some people are making in the field. I do not want the FDA regulating how the indigenous are experiencing peyote or wachuma or ayahuasca. Ashley Carmen: Like, you know, they're medical. They... It's these medical licensing, diagnostic criteria is the things that we talked about. I don't think that coaches even fall under that. And, and I don't know what happens with coaches. I... You know, I think that there needs to be more standardized regulation and criteria around what qualifies as a coach, or at least to work in the psychedelic space. Ashley Carmen: Um, so yeah, that, that feels important to name is to just remind people that there's, there's a lot of multiplicity here in these experiences, and the FDA is only one governing body. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and they're very, they're by their nature very nonlinear. It's not like, it's not like a medicine. Even SSRIs are, you know, arguably nonlinear. They affect different people differently, whereas, you know, aspirin kind of usually fixes your inflammation or your headache or Ashley Carmen: Mm, mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, you, you don't, you don't know what's gonna happen when you go in, Ashley Carmen: Right Matt Kosterman: uh, with these things. Matt Kosterman: So yeah, yeah, great point. Um, resources, what do you... For people to get more informed, what do you, what do you like, where do you like to send people to, to get more informed on pra- on experience, expectations, uh, what medicine might be right for them, what Ashley Carmen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, um, if people are exploring on their own, Fireside is such a great resource. I was just going through some of our content in our community, and Fi- love, really love Joshua and Fireside, and, um, they have a lot of great tools for people that are in crisis and train people on the other end to help ground. Ashley Carmen: Um, I mean, there's a ton of clinical s- studies. If you wanna look at the research and see what, you know, um, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Ashley Carmen: mental health issues that these things are being studied for, like that's, that's out there. Um, I, you know, I say talk to people about, about the medicine, um, you know, which, which medicine is right for me, what, what do I need to do next? Ashley Carmen: I think first you have to figure out if and how you can access some of these medicines 'cause, you know, the underground is underground for a reason, so there's like a secret door. Do you have access to that secret door? Matt Kosterman: Yeah Ashley Carmen: or are, do you have invitation to some of these more sacred settings where, you know, it's not transactional, you can't just pay your way in. Ashley Carmen: Like, there's gotta be a real rapport building an in- invitation. Um, and I also think the medicine finds you. Like there's, there's something to listen to. Like I... I'll, I'll share more tangible resources. I'll s- see what else I can share. But I also think it's really important, maybe this is just my more spiritual framework, to whatever is in front of you, like what becomes available to you is n- next for you in a way, right? Ashley Carmen: With some discernment of course, not everything happening that way. But Matt Kosterman: if, if suddenly mushrooms are in your field over the course of a couple weeks, Ashley Carmen: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: don't Ashley Carmen: you might wanna listen to that. Matt Kosterman: don't go do an ayahuasca journey Ashley Carmen: Yeah, or if you're trying so hard to get SAS or 6-APB or some of these other molecules that are coming out, and you can't find it, you can't find it. But, you know, this peyote experience somehow is pr- actually pretty rare and probably a bad example, but Matt Kosterman: I Ashley Carmen: has opened up it's not... Ashley Carmen: It's more the ex- one of the more exclusive, but... Or yeah, mushrooms. Mushrooms. There's a mushroom ceremony that you found about, out about. Like, I would just follow the nuggets from the, the universe. Like, there's breadcrumbs being left for you, and listen to that. Listen to that, because I really believe that the medicine is a higher intelligence, and things are gonna flow when they're supposed to flow. Matt Kosterman: For sure Ashley Carmen: but other than that, I mean, come on, we've got AI, you know? Like ChatGPT, go to Claude . Uh, you can pull up all the research studies to study all the things. Other good organizations, um, that are doing work. I mean, our organization, for practitioners, we have ethics, right? Like, we do a lot, have a lot of ed- education and resources and tools and free live events monthly. Ashley Carmen: I mean, if... And it's not exclusive to practitioners. Most of our free live events that are happening monthly are tailored for practitioners to provide education. Um, but we also talk about different, different medicines. I saw actually on your list that Christopher Solomon, he's been one of our speakers as well, who introduced Alvia. Ashley Carmen: Like, there's... We have people talking about medicine, so if people wanna follow PGN, um, and are interested, we have live events monthly, and we talk about different medicines and different tools and different things. So, Matt Kosterman: Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Any, uh, any, any good books on your reading list these days, or podcasts that you Ashley Carmen: All pregnancy, I'm listening to home birth, home birthing stories. That's what I'm, that's where I'm in. It's the portal I'm in. Matt Kosterman: raising Ashley Carmen: Although I will be at microdosing ayahuasca when I'm in labor. Matt Kosterman: Oh, lovely. Okay. Ashley Carmen: The vine, yeah, so Matt Kosterman: Just Ashley Carmen: yeah. Matt Kosterman: just the vine? Ashley Carmen: Just the vine Matt Kosterman: the vine, okay. Just the beak happy. Um, yeah, when my, my former wife and I had our, our first child, and she, we had all the books and, you know, she was born and something would happen, and talk, and Amy read all the books. I'd be like, "What, what, what, what does the book say?" Matt Kosterman: And she's like, have any... She's not a book baby." Ashley Carmen: Yeah, I'm looking forward to meeting this. They have got temperaments and personalities, and sometimes they're, they're outside the book. Matt Kosterman: Ja Ashley Carmen: the box, which is probably a great thing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. I Ashley Carmen: But Matt Kosterman: interviewed... He's in your area, in fact, um, in Austin. I just interviewed Ken Mensch, M-O-E-N-C-H, uh, The Mensch Method, and he has a book called "Every Baby Hurts." Um, and he does this deep, uh, m-muscle release, and he's done it on e- on people from birth, infants, to 78-year-old-- uh, to 97-year-olds. Ashley Carmen: Fascinating Matt Kosterman: his own grandson, uh, was in, was a screamer for the w- from coming out of the womb, Ashley Carmen: உம் Matt Kosterman: he worked on him and got everything to o- got him in complete bliss, and it was never a problem Ashley Carmen: Yeah, that's... Matt Kosterman: so Ashley Carmen: My husband has, like, changed his workout routine to be more primal movements and floor movements 'cause he's like, "I wanna move, wants to move with the baby," and, like, he's getting super agile and doing all these flips and working on his mobility. And, um, he bought a book that's called, like, Fit Baby, Smart Baby, Your Baby, and it's, it's movement patterns from zero to six. Ashley Carmen: And so, um, he's like, "We're gonna make a ninja." And elim- we're also reading Elimination Communication. We're just like we're gonna start potty training, like, on day four Matt Kosterman: Oh, Ashley Carmen: and seeing how it goes. So, um, but yeah, that's movement patterns, muscles, fascia, we're also into that as well. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ashley Carmen: Yeah, that's good stuff Matt Kosterman: Yeah, no, Ken has four offices down there. Did wonderful work on me. I'm actually gonna Ashley Carmen: Bench method. Noted Matt Kosterman: be back in a couple weeks for some more. Um, works on athletes, works on b-ball players, Olympians, um, but-- and babies and dogs even. Uh, Ashley Carmen: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: has healed numerous dogs, many, many from not being able to walk, um, and just opens them up, Ashley Carmen: Awesome Matt Kosterman: All right, Ash. Am I breaking up on your end? Ashley Carmen: You are Matt Kosterman: Okay. Hopefully it works on this end. Thanks for being on. It was so great to connect. I appreciate your time, Ashley Carmen: My honor. Thank you for having me Matt Kosterman: you bet, and best of luck in the birthing process. Ashley Carmen: Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it Matt Kosterman: We'll see you all in the next episode, or hear you, or you'll hear me, or whatever that is. Matt Kosterman: Thanks, everybody. Bye-bye. Matt Kosterman: thing we might do, I, I think let's, let's... I'm gonna stop, I'm gonna pause it or stop, you know, stop the recording 'cause-