S3 • E02 Devon James2 === Matt Kosterman: Hey, this is Matt, and we're back for yet another episode of The Permission Slip. And, I have an amazing guest today. I am out in the lovely suburb of Hinsdale, Illinois, with Dr. Devon James, who owns an amazing, incredible business. She's just built this, built out this beautiful facility in Hinsdale, called Within Reach Healing, and she was trained as a chiropractor, but concedes that they probably wouldn't let her in their club anymore. Matt Kosterman: So I like to call her a witch. She's... Have you gotten over that wound, the witch wound? Devon James: Yeah, I don't mind it. Okay. I mean, I think a lot of patients call me a lot of different things, and I know they mean it in, in nothing but love. In- Right? ... Matt Kosterman: deed, it's so welcome. Devon James: It's so welcome. Great- It's fine ... Matt Kosterman: great, great to have you. Devon James: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Matt Kosterman: You bet. So, um- I found Devon through Laura, which was the episode just before this, through Laura O'Malley, and she's like, "You gotta go see Devon. You gotta go see Devon." And so I did, and it was amazing. Like, we did so many cool things. I don't even know. There was all kinds of muscle testing and computers involved, so it kind of, it bridged both of my in- s- two of my interests, which is healing and computers. Matt Kosterman: and, so tell us about your business. Tell us what, what are, what are you building here? You got a lot of different practitioners. Tell me about h- how, how did... W- we're gonna go through so many things, but- Yeah ... just tell, tell everybody about Within Reach He- Healing and your vision for this. Devon James: For sure. Devon James: Within Reach Healing, the vision is to provide, like, a one-stop shop. What I noticed, I think, during COVID was, one was I actually got very busy during COVID, and patients really put a lot into me, I think, or just really wanted me to hold every aspect of, of whatever it was that they needed. And it was, it was a lot. Devon James: You know, like, I can do a lot of different things, and I can provide a lot of different services and be very helpful, but what I realized was over a period of time, like, I just started to kinda feel like I'm really good at what it is that I do, and sometimes I would r- wanna refer them out to other places, and they'd be like, "Well, I can't drive all the way out there because, like, that's just too far." Devon James: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: blah, Devon James: blah, blah, whatever reason. And, yeah, whatever reason was. Because, because Matt Kosterman: reasons. Devon James: Because of reasons. Right. You know? And I'm like, "This is the best person that I know," and they're like, "No, I can't do it." So I had this thought of, like, wow, it would be a lot less... They, it would be really hard to argue against me if I found really incredible people, and they were like, "Well, just go see somebody right next door," right? Devon James: Yeah. "We know that you can get to this office." Right. And you- Let's take that excuse away ... I know you want me to be your therapist, and yes, I have done a significant amount- Yeah ... of therapy, and I've graduated- Right, we just- ... in therapy ... we just talked about that ... we just discussed that. Right? Matt Kosterman: So- Reluctantly graduated. Devon James: Reluctantly. She kicked me out. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Devon James: She was like, "You're healed, and you have more skills than all of my patients combined with how you can, you know, clear yourself, heal yourself, do all these things." So, but I was like, "But I'm not a therapist," right? Like, you... There's some different techniques. Like, I love EMDR. Devon James: I love somatic therapy. I love teaching people how to feel their feelings in their body, but I didn't take those courses, so I don't know that. So, like, going to a therapist to really break down some of those things, really great, right? Mm-hmm. So, then the space that I have is big enough that we have, like, a movement space, so we can do yoga. Devon James: We can do sound healing. then we have... I still have Jaylen. So she's a massage therapist. she does incredible work. She does, um- Cranial sacral therapy, hot stones, cupping. She's, she's her own... She's done a lot of work herself. She's also very intuitive. then we have an aesthetics room, so we have facials. Devon James: soon to have some waxing services possibly. Mind- Matt Kosterman: mindful facials. Devon James: Mindful facials. Yes, with good quality products. That's right. You know? bringing out your inner beauty. Mm-hmm. And, and then I found a phenomenal physical therapist that does not only orthopedic, but she also does pelvic floor therapy. Devon James: Uh- Oh, good. Matt Kosterman: You found somebody? Yeah, okay. Devon James: Yeah. Yeah. So I have that. Yeah. Cassidy is great. and, like, the aesthetics for the facials, Deja. So actually I found her because my daughter is 16, and she was having some acne things, and she was just really stressed about that. And so I was like, "Okay, we'll just go get a facial over at Massage Envy." Devon James: And we both fell in love with Deja. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: And, like, right afterwards, we, like, left, and my daughter looks at me. She's like, "You have to steal her." And I was like, "We can't just come in so hot, Addie." Like, we have to, like... I'm gonna sit in the corner, like, just minding my own business. I'm not gonna tell her who I am, you know? Devon James: And we'll see if we can kind of, like, get her to, you know, moonlight a little bit. Yeah. So she's moonlighting a little bit. Okay. Okay. You know? But she just is... She's a healer in her own sense. She's great. And then, I bought this bio scan unit several years ago. It was a decent amount of money, and it's really cool because it takes kind of, like, the human out of it. Devon James: And so it goes down to, um- Matt Kosterman: That's the computer that we worked with? Devon James: The computer. No. Matt Kosterman: Or it's different? Devon James: This is different. Okay. So this is... I don't think you've actually... We haven't played with that one. Oh. Matt Kosterman: Oh, gotcha. Devon James: So maybe I can show you afterwards depending on how much time we Matt Kosterman: have. Maybe I'm not healed. Matt Kosterman: Maybe I'm not healed yet. Devon James: You're not healed Matt Kosterman: yet. I might need that. Devon James: So that's really... This thing is really cool 'cause it can go down to, like, a cellular level and, even, like, a DNA level, and it can check for, like, emotions. It can check for, like, pathogens, infections. And then it's really cool. It can, like, create, and we're supposed to say an energy-charged water because we can't use the word remedy. Devon James: Mm-hmm. Because remedy would imply that it heals you. Mm-hmm. And we can't say that 'cause the- And, and we all know Matt Kosterman: that you, you heal you. Devon James: You heal you. Ultima- ultimately- For sure ... Matt Kosterman: you Devon James: heal Matt Kosterman: you. Devon James: For sure. You heal you. So, because I think it's not f- that machine that I have is not FDA approved, and we don't run it through insurance or anything. Devon James: Sure. That's a cash business. Cash. Yeah. So Diane was the one that actually showed me this, introduced me to this, this, this bio scan, machine. And Aiden, my partner, he was, like, out of town visiting family in a different country, and he was having an issue with his tooth. And I was trying to do some remote work on him and stuff, and so I just brought his picture along 'cause you can use it by a picture. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: And so we were trying to clear his, his tooth. There was, like, a couple other things that were coming up with it, and it's also, like, it's a Russian unit. So, like, some of the words are in Russian. So you have to do, like, a translation. Little translation. So, and it kept coming up brother-in-law, brother-in-law, brother-in-law, and I was like, "That's so weird." Devon James: So a couple days later, we talked, and, um- I was like, "How's it going over there?" And he was like, "Oh my God, I got into the worst argument with my brother-in-law." Matt Kosterman: Oh? Devon James: And I was like, "You have got to be kidding me. What?" Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon James: And like he, he was across the world, and like it picked up- The brother, the Matt Kosterman: brother-in-law too, or you? Devon James: Yeah, and my husband. Like he was, he was- ' Matt Kosterman: Cause the brother-in-law's on his side? Devon James: Yes. Yeah. Like a, a sister's- It's on his side. Yeah ... a sister's husband. It was like all over there, 'cause all of his family lives in a different country. Okay. So he went to go visit them, and then it was like, I was like, "Oh my God, I am sold on this." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: And I was seeing, like a, I was using, I think, an Alchemist at the time, and he was just crazy expensive, so I just really wanted to make my own- Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh ... Devon James: kind of thing. Matt Kosterman: And what was the outcome like the, of, of, of Aiden with the Devon James: brother-in-law? Matt Kosterman: Of Devon James: Aiden? Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And like the sy- so the system diagnosed Devon James: it, does it- So the system diagnosed it of it. Devon James: And then what do you do with it? And so we kind of did some stuff. We cleared it, and and it was interesting 'cause Aiden was like, "Yeah, I was crying about it," and I was like, I've seen this guy cry like once in my entire known of existence. I was like, "You were crying about it?" Oh. He just has a lot of dopamine in him, so he's got like a- Oh, he's- Devon James: genetic defect. He's got so much dopamine. He's so happy. He's happy all the time. I was like, should I, should check mine? Is it the opposite? Is mine broken- Yeah, this is why it works ... in a different way? Right. so no, but he, they kind of like, they worked it out, and they did some stuff like for his, like for his tooth where he was at. Devon James: Okay. And then also the bio scan worked on it, so, and then eventually we had to do more stuff. So like it was just, it was interesting information- Yeah ... I think to gather. And I had like a low back issue at the time, and I was looking at it, and I was like, "Oh, it looks like it's mostly emotional." And the guy that was helping me, I was like, "Yeah." Devon James: I was like, "It, I did the scan, it said it was emotional." And he was like, "Yeah, I know," and he laughed. And I was like, "Why are you laughing?" He's like, "Well, first off, like you just cried the last visit. Second off, none of your symptoms make sense neurologically, so I already knew it was emotional." Uh-huh. "I'm just trying to help you through Matt Kosterman: this." Matt Kosterman: Right. Devon James: I was like, "Well, that's annoying." Emotional. Matt Kosterman: Emotional, yeah. Devon James: So it's a very cool tool. Matt Kosterman: That's how I got into this mess, was when my pelvic floor therapist touched the inside of my left thigh and I burst into tears. Devon James: Right. Matt Kosterman: And I'm, you know, I was thinking it was all physical. It's all, it's physical. For Devon James: sure. Matt Kosterman: Can't be emotional. We've all- I've done all kinds of work. Exactly. Devon James: It just feels like, it feels- Like annoying, right? Yeah When it's emotional. But like we are very emotional beings and it would be great to be... I don't think it would be great honestly to be logical all the time. I think we wanted to be logical, but emotions just don't run that way. Devon James: I think Matt Kosterman: we're, I think we're programmed that it should just be logical. Yeah. I mean, I have a father who's insists he's very logical, and he is. Like he, he, he, you know, he's great and he doesn't feel emotions in the same way- Okay ... as other humans. And he's on the s- he's on a, we're all on a spectrum someplace, right? Matt Kosterman: Right. I don't, mean, personally I believe that we're here to feel the emotions. And Laura's- Right ... and Laura's guides- Devon James: For sure ... Matt Kosterman: would say that, that- Yeah ... that's why we come here. They do say that, "That's why we come here." Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and we're programmed to, in so many cases, to just suppress them. Devon James: Right. Matt Kosterman: And that's where we have the problem. Matt Kosterman: Yes. And this is where you come in with- That's where I come Devon James: in ... all of your, Matt Kosterman: all of your- Devon James: I'm pretty good with emotional stuff. Yeah. You know? And I always tell people, you know, they'll be in front of me and they'll, you know, we'll be kind of even just going through their history and intake and stuff, and then they'll just start crying. Devon James: They're like, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry, like I'm crying." And I was like, "It's all right. I have the face for it." Right. Like I just I have the face, I have the personality. I just- I can, I can take it. I can handle it ... I'm here for it. Yeah. I'm here for it. nobody is ever too much for me, and everybody is always enough for me. Devon James: Mm-hmm. You know? So it, there's nothing that anybody's gonna say that I'm gonna judge them, that I'm gonna be scared about what comes out of, you know, where they are. And I always tell people, I'm like, "You know, it's those things that you tell me that you don't wanna really wanna tell anybody else that honestly makes you more lovable." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: Like it's those vulnerable moments that you're like, "Oh my gosh, I just had a moment and I just rose more in love with you as a human." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know? Just to see the human experience of who they are. so yeah, I created a really cool work environment. I found the best of the best. we're still looking for... Devon James: I have a current great therapist, and she k- was kind of moonlighting for me, at a full-time gig, and so she's moving on to a different full-time gig and they won't let her moonlight somewhere else. Okay. So I am looking for like a therapist, a psychotherapist that potentially does like EMDR therapy and/or somatic therapy. Devon James: But, I've got a great team- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Devon James: pulling together. Matt Kosterman: You have like six, six, seven people? Yeah. Devon James: No, I have like, so how many do I have? Oh, but I did just... So I, I'm also on my, like onboarding like four people right now. Oh, wow. So we ha- so we have Ingress that comes. Matt Kosterman: Ingress, who I Devon James: know and worked with. you've worked with her. Devon James: She's wonderful. Yeah. She's actually coming in today, right? So she does muscle testing and she does, she's a massage therapist, but she does a lot of the techniques that I haven't taken. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, body bridging she said- Devon James: Body bridging ... she calls it She does like all these other very complicated techniques. Like stuff Matt Kosterman: with access consciousness. Matt Kosterman: She uses- Yeah, she just has- Devon James: Which, which I did a little- She's always learning ... Matt Kosterman: I did a little training and that's interesting Devon James: Ingress is always learning stuff. Yeah. Like she, she has a great mind. And Matt Kosterman: so are you. You have a huge repertoire. Devon James: I do. Yeah. I, I like lost count. Probably like 17 or 18 techniques. Devon James: Yeah. It's- It's just like- Matt Kosterman: And just kind of blending them together, which is- Devon James: I do. I just take like the best of them and then I just kind of let each person's body kind of talk on what it is that they need. Yeah. And then it's like I just use this technique here, this technique there, and then we just kind of- Matt Kosterman: And then Devon James: boom, you're healed Give them, yeah, then boom Matt Kosterman: You're healed. Devon James: You can rise, rise up again, right? So let's see. So like if we count me, so Tracy is actually gonna come in here. So she's a life coach. Okay. Oh, beautiful. So life coaching is different than therapy, right? Yes. 'Cause it's looking like kind of at this is where we're at, like what can we do forward from here? Devon James: Instead of like therapy, you kinda deep dive backwards. Mm-hmm. Like coaching is kinda going forward. So she's wonderful. That's a great way to put it, yeah. I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. So she, um... And those are her words- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we were talking to the, our website guy, Seth, about it. Uh-huh. So I was like, "Okay, that's a incredible way of looking at it." Devon James: So she is great. so she's gonna be joining us soon. And then, so Tracy Ingress. Mm-hmm. Then we have Hailey, who does sound healing. Oh, Matt Kosterman: sound healing. Yeah. Devon James: So she does incredible sound healing. I did never... I did one with her and I was like, "Wow, it just reorganized like everything." Hmm. It felt amazing. she also does yoga, but she's taking a little break from that 'cause she had a baby this year. Devon James: Oh, congratulations. And so she... Yes. So she's doing the most important job, right? Yep. Raising her son. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: so she's doing sound healing. Then we have Julie, who's gonna be joining us. So she's gonna be teaching yoga. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: And then like I said, we have Jaylen does massage therapy. Then we have- Facial Devon James: Deja that does facials, Cassidy that does, pelvic floor therapy and orthopedic therapy, Diane that runs the BioScan. And then I'm onboarding, two nurse practitioners. So we found out that the lovely state of Illinois does not allow nurse practitioners and chiropractors to be in an LLC together. Matt Kosterman: Oh. Devon James: So- Oh ... that is not allowed. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Interesting. Devon James: Mm-hmm. Found that out after I built the room for them, so and so many other things. Matt Kosterman: So they're gonna be their own thing. Devon James: So they will have their own LLCs, their own entities, their own kind of like booking sites. One I think is gonna go with Jane. The other one is still kind of researching which one they wanna do, and then they will rent space from me and, you know- Okay Devon James: be a part of it. Sure. And they are on board with, you know, holistic healing. Like, I've demonstrated who I am to them- Yeah ... to everybody- To everybody ... that joined the team. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I was like- So- ... I'm, I'm at a age where, like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be different for you, you know? Yeah, no. So, like, if you wanna be a part of it, that would be great. Devon James: If you don't, that's totally cool. That, that's Matt Kosterman: fine too. Yeah. So that's, like, 11 or 12 that you've named. Devon James: Yeah. It's a, it's a- Yeah ... it's a full house kind of, you know? Matt Kosterman: That's amazing. It- Devon James: Yeah, so it's fun. Now I have, like, people at work instead of just being by myself sometimes, you know? Fun. Yeah, ' Matt Kosterman: cause you were... Matt Kosterman: Every time I came before, like, you had another room at your s- other- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: other place, but I don't ever remember anybody being there. Devon James: Well, Jaelyn was there, but- Okay ... a lot of times we, we would work opposite of each other anyways due to her. Yeah, and it was- She's got two small kids too. Okay. So yeah, so. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and it was a, yeah, it was a cute place, but not very big. This place is b- palatial and spacious. Yeah, it was, Devon James: like, less than 500 square feet. Matt Kosterman: It was, it was- My Devon James: first place ... tiny ... and this is, like, 2,900 square feet. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, this place is amazing. It's gorgeous, and it's in a wooded area. It's very peaceful- Yeah Matt Kosterman: and serene. It's pretty. And, and it's... I find it interesting because I had, I had a vision of doing a similar thing as like- Okay ... I don't have the background in it or whatever. Yeah. But when I was in Sedona in 2021 and this guy, David Galardi, who's this interdimensional galactic d- shaman, was like- Mm Matt Kosterman: "You're here to be a healer," and that's how I got into this whole, partly how I got into this whole mess. Yeah. And, and I was sitting in meditation, and I, I'd worked with a bunch of people in Sedona. I'm like, "We need a Sedona in Chicago." Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And so, like, I, this is kinda Sedona in Chicago. Devon James: I'm trying. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: You Devon James: know? Matt Kosterman: This is, like, all of the, all of the things. It br- All of the things. And, and just to clarify, like, I think in, I've probably seen you half a dozen or eight times. Mm-hmm. I think one time or twice maybe you gave me a chiropractic adjustment. It's not... Her title is chiropractor. Devon James: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And, or, or y- your training, part- Right Matt Kosterman: one of your trainings, but it's not a place necessarily to come in and get your back cracked every week. I mean, if you need that, but- Devon James: sometimes I am that person ... Matt Kosterman: it, but sometimes you Devon James: are that person. Sometimes I am that person. So I would say I'm very adaptable. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: Right? So yes, my training- I just wanted to kinda set Matt Kosterman: it up like it's- Devon James: Yeah, for sure Matt Kosterman: it's Devon James: not the- Yeah ... it's, she's not the typical- It's not a, not a typical... Yeah. And that's, like, the beautiful thing I think about chiropractors, 'cause I feel like chiropractors, I mean, for sure we're all, I would say for sure, like a mixed bag of weird. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: And, like, the difference with them is, with chiropractors is, like, there's so many different techniques, and each chiropractor could really just specialize in, in, like, different modalities and different techniques. Devon James: So you can go from one chiropractor to another chiropractor, and you can have a drastically different experience. Mm-hmm. So m- my training kind of like during chiropractic school, the clubs that I got into was applied kinesiology. So applied kinesiology is a whole organ system where, like, you are muscle testing. Devon James: So I can muscle test every single muscle in the entire body down to, like, the different divisions. Like, we have, like, you know, three different divisions in the quad, and- Mm-hmm ... there's just all different ones. The glutes and all the- The glutes- Yeah ... and e- and everything. And then each of those muscles has a lot of correlation to it. Devon James: So one it goes with, it goes through, like, different acupuncture meridians. Okay. It goes through, like, different neurovascular, so, like, the vasculature, then, like, lymphatic drainages. It has... Each specific muscle has their own specific nutrition. So, like, let's say if somebody has, you know, a tight psoas, right? Devon James: Mm-hmm, Matt Kosterman: which most Devon James: of Matt Kosterman: us do. Devon James: Well, which most of us do. ' Matt Kosterman: Cause we Devon James: sit all the time. Okay. We sit all the time. So one is, like, action of, like, what it is that we're doing. Another one is, like, they are a deep low back stabilizer. They are in the same meridian as the kidneys. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: The main nutrition source is water. Devon James: So if somebody that's constantly dehydrated all the time, you know, it's not gonna help their psoas, right? If they're not drinking enough water. and so what else is fun about the ki- the main emotion of the kidneys is fear. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: Right? So each muscle has their own little story, and they have their own networking. Matt Kosterman: And the, and the muscle testing is a physic- is a physicality. It's a physical- You do, like you- I do the muscle testing ... you look, yeah- Yeah ... and you're, you're looking for a resistance of some kind, right? For Devon James: sure. Yeah. Yeah. And even like me- you know, like muscle testing originally was developed by medical doctors. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: So, and then chiropractic turned it a little weird. And, and then- Right? So then they- Well, then, then, yeah ... then they, they took it to the next level. They found all these other correlations with it. Um- Matt Kosterman: And then David Hawkins used it to establish his s- Exactly ... this, the map of consciousness- Devon James: Exactly ... Matt Kosterman: to test for the truth of what he was- Devon James: Right Matt Kosterman: intuiting. E- Devon James: exactly. And Matt Kosterman: created the whole thing. Devon James: So I think it's so cool. Like, so I really love muscle testing, and as soon as I found out about it and being able to muscle test, I was like, "Why doesn't everybody do this?" Because I personally don't like being incorrect, right? Right. Like, I just, I enjoy getting it correct a good majority of the time if I could. Devon James: So like if a person's going to come in and they have like back pain or they have something else that's going on, like why wouldn't we just like muscle test everything? Like muscle test all the low back muscles, muscle test their abs, muscle test everything that's going on, and then see kind of like what is the correlation, right? Devon James: Mm-hmm. Is it, oh, okay, well, the, the QL is off, or this is, like that's- So it's- ... related to your large intestine. Like, well, how you said earlier your digestion was off or, right, you just got off of antibiotics, or you just- Yeah ... did this or that. What does your diet Matt Kosterman: look like? Devon James: Well, right. Matt Kosterman: What are you eating? Matt Kosterman: What are you not eating? Devon James: Exactly. So it's like being able to take all of that information and then really put something like more meaningful together instead of just being like, "Oh, I have this protocol, and I do this protocol, and this exact same thing- Right ... on every single person that comes in." I have zero protocols. Devon James: I have tools and techniques that I have that I could run a gut dysbiosis protocol, like the Liebowitz protocol really gave me my life back- Okay ... I think, for the most part. Okay. 'cause I've had GI issues my whole life. Matt Kosterman: Okay. And so, so interesting that you say that, 'cause literally just in the podcast that I recorded with Laura O'Malley- Yeah Matt Kosterman: her guides were saying, and, and I think it made it to the podcast, but we were talking about it- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: in advance that literally every one of the eight billion humans that are currently on this planet are here for a different experience. Devon James: Right. Matt Kosterman: And the one thing doesn't work- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: for everybody. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, and, and that's why I'm doing this show, you know, 'cause so far I think I've got, you know, 35 different ways that I've shown people that you can go at your thing. Matt Kosterman: For Devon James: sure. Matt Kosterman: And so that's what the beauty of muscle testing is, that it's- Devon James: Yeah. It is- ... Matt Kosterman: sort of customized. Ult- Devon James: It is, it customizes it ... at ultimate. And I think that like, I think what I struggle with sometimes is like people will want to say like, "Well, what do you do for low back pain?" I'm like, "Well, well, who is the person that has it?" Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Devon James: Because- I could probably think of like 99 different reasons of why somebody would have low back pain, and it's like it is very much specific. I have like the worst intake of your life that you will fill out. Right. Yeah. Remember that? Yeah. It's like if you print it out... Don't. Yeah. It's like 14 pages, and I'm like just keep it all in 'cause paper gives me anxiety, but- Yeah. Devon James: Don't ... I'm like just keep it all in my system. In Matt Kosterman: the system. Devon James: but- Matt Kosterman: And so that in conjunction with- That is- ... your muscle testing. Right. And the muscle testing, that's where you're also using the computer system, yes? That Devon James: computer, I just kinda... I'm taking notes. Matt Kosterman: You're taking notes. Okay. Devon James: I'm taking notes, because then sometimes w- what will happen is like we'll go down a rabbit hole of it. Devon James: Okay. And sometimes we'll clear it so good that I'll be like, "Wait, what was the beginning part of our rabbit hole?" Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: And I'll go back, and I'll check it. Matt Kosterman: I see. I see. Devon James: So yeah. I kind... I'm just keeping track of what it is that we're doing, so that way when you're like, "Dude, that treatment that you gave me last time, best treatment of my life," then I can go back and be like, "What did we do last time?" Devon James: What did we do? Okay. Because usually I'm in the moment- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... of it, and it's like what are we, what are we actually doing? So it's, um... Yeah, I don't have the protocol because it depends on every single human experience has been entirely different. I mean, and even, even I treat a lot of families, right? Devon James: And it's like- Even one child's experience to another child's experience is gonna be entirely different. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: You know? They Matt Kosterman: have- My brother and... Yeah, my brother and sister and I, we actually, we did a mushroom trip a couple years ago together. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and we, you know, we love each other, but it was, it was... Matt Kosterman: We realized how we had three completely separate- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: experiences. You know, my sister kinda had the benefit of going to the same schools, m- mostly the same schools from, like, middle to high school, where- Okay ... my brother went to five high schools. Oh, wow. I went to three high schools. Wow. You know? Yeah. I'm older, he's younger. Matt Kosterman: Like, everything... Same family. Same family unit. Mm-hmm. We lived under the same roof. We didn't talk a lot, you know- Yeah ... then. It's like, wow, we signed up for, like, three different things. Devon James: Yeah. So it's like I really try to honor all of those things, because one thing is not going to fix everything. Right. And sometimes- Do you mean Matt Kosterman: there's not a pill? Devon James: I wish. Matt Kosterman: You don't, like... Devon James: Yeah. Oh my God, can you think of how wealthy I would be if I- Right ... if I picked the one thing- The pill ... that fixed everything? Uh-huh. Yeah, it's just so multifactorial. We're so complicated. So it's, it's a great thing, so that's why I've taken so many different techniques. One, because I need to do it for continuing education purposes to keep my license as a chiropractor. Devon James: Okay. But also, too, because I really do like learning, and I like to explore and see what's out there, and, when I get stuck with different patients, then I'm like, "Okay, I gotta maybe go learn something new- Mm-hmm ... to see, like, how can we unstick them?" Matt Kosterman: Or now you bring, bring somebody in. Devon James: Yeah. That, that could- Or I get to bring somebody in, and I get to, like, we get Matt Kosterman: to- If Devon James: you're seeing sort of the s- I know, we get to tag team. Devon James: Uh-huh. I'd be like, "Okay, we've done this, but, like, you, you actually really need to get some PT exercises in there," right? I'm not your girl to tell you, like... I'm not a chiropractic rehabber. Okay. There's a lot of chiropractors that, like, go and they do rehab, and they know all that stuff, and then they rehab, and they... Devon James: I'm not that. You're not that person. I'm not, I'm not that girl for that. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah. Devon James: So I do a lot of, like, deep emotional work things. I do, um... Matt Kosterman: And you're also coming at it from you're listening to your own intuition. Devon James: For sure. Matt Kosterman: And, and whatever you're getting- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: from- Devon James: Yeah. So I was at a seminar, and it was for TBM, so total, total body modification, and it was the first time that Dr. Devon James: Kevin Miller ever taught the course, and it was for, um- magnetic energy healing. Okay? And so there was one, two, three, four, five of us total, including Dr. Kevin- Matt Kosterman: Okay ... Devon James: in the room. And everybody assumingly just so much smarter than me. Like, his wife, like, double doctorate. Like, Kevin's so smart. My, my boss that I worked with at the time, he's just super smart, brilliant guy. Devon James: Another guy just... And I have a very high IQ- Mm-hmm ... but I would say like, the, the other people, like, it doesn't, it doesn't always shine, you know? Okay. And, um- Matt Kosterman: Maybe 'cause you don't let it. Devon James: Maybe 'cause I don't let it shine. I don't know. I, I feel like I'm adaptive. Like, I, you know- Yeah ... I could be in Mensa. I could. Devon James: I have a high IQ. I just like, does, are those the people I wanna hang out with? I don't think so. Right. I don't know. But also, I haven't been there. Yeah. So maybe I would be like, I would feel at home. I'm not sure. Matt Kosterman: You might? Devon James: I should try it. I don't know. I'll add it to my list of things to do. Add it to your list. Devon James: I'll Matt Kosterman: add it Devon James: to my list. 'Cause Matt Kosterman: you don't have enough. Devon James: I don't have enough on my list. Matt Kosterman: So you're with Devon James: Dr. Matt Kosterman: Kevin. So- You're Devon James: learning this- So I was learning this thing, and we were taking turns. We were trying to heal his shoulder. We were doing some other stuff. And I just got this vision, and it was actually of, like, a past life that I saw him. Devon James: And I got... And it was kinda like the first flash that I've ever really had gotten of it, and I was like, "Oh my God," and I just got so emotional about it. And I had just... And he turns around, and he was like, "Why are you crying right now?" And I was, like, asking him questions, like, just specifically of what it was that I saw. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: Like, "Did you ever have your arms tied behind your back? Were you ever dre- Like, did any of this stuff happen?" And then he started to get emotional a little bit, and he was like, he was like, "No, but I'm, I'm feeling something into what it is that you're saying." And I was like, "What if I magnetize you?" Devon James: Because we were practicing magnetizing each other. And, and he was like, "I don't know. I feel like as your teacher, like, I should get through this material." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. And Devon James: like- And Matt Kosterman: this is with Kevin, Devon James: Dr. Kevin? This is with Kevin. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: And so, and I was like- I'm like, "Well, either we can continue to learn about what all these dead guys taught us- Right Devon James: or we could do it, and we can benefit from learning that." So I went, and he, in his own words, he would say I performed the most, like, healing experiences of that whole entire weekend. It helped healed his shoulder, and I think it's still good to this day. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: and it was funny, because as we were reading through all of it, it's really hard names. Devon James: It's like peace, security, and guillotine. Like, I have a really high intelligence, but my reading comprehension and reading level is terrible. Matt Kosterman: Oh, interesting. Okay. Devon James: It's very terrible. So we were Rob Robining the room of, like, worst anxiety of my life of, like, reading each person in a row was reading. So I was the shitty reader, and of cour- then it was like, I performed the best healing of the weekend. Devon James: And so he's like, "That's changed the way that I'm gonna look at people- Matt Kosterman: Oh ... Devon James: now." Uh-huh. And when we were talking, I was like, "Well, yeah. I mean, like, when patients come in to see you guys, right, like, their bodies talk to you, right? Like, you..." They're like, "No." And then he's like, turns to me. Oh. He's like, "Are you clairvoyant?" Devon James: And I was like, "I don't... It's a big word. I don't know what that means." Don't Matt Kosterman: make me spell it. Devon James: It's like, don't, don't. If I have to spell for my supper, I'm getting no supper. That's for sure. That's for sure. I got a D in spelling in second grade, and it stuck with me. It motivated me to be the person I am today. Devon James: they don't do letter grades in elementary school anymore, I think because of my trauma. Because of that. Uh-huh. Yeah. But, so, and then he was like, "No. It's like you just, like, you just know. Like, you can hear things, you know thing." And I was like, "Oh, yeah. Like, doesn't everybody?" Mm-hmm. And he was like, "No." Matt Kosterman: No. Devon James: And then I was like, "But people come in, and then they're... Like, you'll just hear. Like, their body will be like, 'I have parasites.'" Uh-huh. Like, "I've been ab- I, and I was like, "It does that, right?" And they were like, "No." And I was like, "What?" I'm like, "What do you guys do all day? Like, do you have to go to work and think?" Devon James: I'm like, "Oh my God, you have to think all day?" All day. All day you think. And I was like, "Wow, this is... That would be a horrible job." Exhausting. That would be so terrible. Like, I go to work, I have the best time with my patients. Matt Kosterman: Their bodies just talk to Devon James: me. Their bodies just talk to me. I just do whatever their bodies wanna do. Devon James: you know, sometimes... I used to pretend, like, I used to, like, go through and I'd be like, "All right. Every new patient I'm gonna run through. I'm gonna do the TBM basic exam. I'm gonna do this, then I'm gonna do..." And then I just kinda was like, "Why would I do that?" Like, I, I'm just not honoring their bodies, right? Devon James: Just ask. So I just ask their body. I'm like, "What are we doing today?" Uh-huh. So I just show up to work feeling very unprepared, right? But I don't have to because they are the ones that said that, "I want help." Matt Kosterman: Right. Devon James: So their bodies are gonna tell me what to do. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: And I just get to go to work. I get to clear my mind. Devon James: I get to have... I get to meet wonderful people all day long with all these different backgrounds, all these different experiences, all the gifts of the human beings that they are. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Devon James: And I get to treat them as the gifts that they are, and meet them where they're at, and do whatever it is that they need to get healed. Devon James: And, Matt Kosterman: and not, yeah, and not have a specific protocol that you're running through for everybody. Devon James: No. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. ' Devon James: Cause that just doesn't work unfortunately. Matt Kosterman: It doesn't work. Devon James: And- It never worked on me. Matt Kosterman: No, it never worked on me either. So- And I actually, I've had, you know, to kind of, I don't know, you know, buttress your- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: I could call it an argument, I mean, I, of that this is a thing. Like, I've had that experience because I've been trained in a couple of modalities. I was at a big retreat a year and a half ago in Mexico, and there was a, another woman, in the retreat. It was part of this course that I was in. And she had had, neck problems since she was in second grade and a boy... Matt Kosterman: Or in, in preschool. Devon James: Okay. Matt Kosterman: And a boy pushed her and she got whiplash. Devon James: Oh, okay. Matt Kosterman: And we had just done a really deep anger release exercise where we were- Okay ... flailing all over the place. And I'm standing next to her in line to get lunch, and her neck, her neck was down, her head was down. And I was like, "What's wrong?" Matt Kosterman: And she said, "I can't lift my head up. 'Cause of that exercise, it triggered this thing." Devon James: Oh. " Matt Kosterman: And I heard you can help her." And so from Jonathan's myofascial work- Mm-hmm ... that I trained in, a couple of years ago, that I haven't... I, I've practiced some, but I don't practice it. And I was like, you know, "I think I can help you. Matt Kosterman: Do you wanna go lay on this..." It was this, this ashram in the middle of the jungle, and so it was very w- um- Oh, wow ... "You go lay on this kinda mattress-y thing that's over here." Mm-hmm. She's like, "O- o- okay." And, and so we did. And I pulled on her head. Devon James: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I did this move, and it's called riding the dragon. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And you lift, you lift the head up by the suboccipitals under- Okay ... at the top of the spine, and you slowly, you know, twist it from side to side. And, and since then she was fine. Devon James: That's awesome. Matt Kosterman: She, she's like, "I've had this my whole life." And then I had like two other people, somebody with an arm thing- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: had an alcoholic husband, was doing the right arm. You know, she was doing, doing, doing, doing, doing all the things, and she had this nerve pain. I said, "I think I can help you." And I pulled on her arm for about 30 minutes, and she's, to this day as far as I know, it's gone. Devon James: It's amazing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: Not all healers are doctors and not all doctors are healers. Matt Kosterman: Are healers. Yeah. So I can attest to- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: it's a, it's a, it's a, I, I don't see it, but it, when it comes, it's a little voice. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: A little, a knowingness. Devon James: I was listening to one of Brene Brown's newer book called Strong Ground. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: And they were talking about intuition in that book. Okay. And the scientific explanation for intuition, have you, have you heard of at all? Matt Kosterman: No, I don't, no. Devon James: It's pattern recognition. Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. Devon James: At, like, a very high rate. Ah. All of these, like, patterns kind of come together, and it comes at a person so quickly that it's like they can't explain the knowing- Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh ... Devon James: of it. Matt Kosterman: Of it. Well, I think, I just read a thing that said, you know, quantum scientists are just catching up to what spirituality- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: has been doing for- Devon James: For sure ... Matt Kosterman: for, you know, it's- Yeah ... it's there. It's whatever you wanna call it, the quantum field- Oh, yeah ... the back home, like it's- Oh, yeah ... the, the Akashic. Devon James: For Matt Kosterman: sure. Everything that's ever been done or will be done- Devon James: Right ... Matt Kosterman: all exists stored energetically in the place. In Devon James: one... Yeah. In- And it's really cool. Devon James: It's so cool to tap into that, and I've taken, like, several different techniques. Like, I do quantum neurology. Matt Kosterman: Oh. Oh. Devon James: And, um- Talk about that ... and then there's, like, so many different techniques, but it's interesting 'cause, like, I can do remote healing. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: So when people are like, "Well, how do you do it?" Devon James: And I was like, "Well," I'm like, "How do I explain that?" Like and I usually try to, like, I start off with being like, "Well, you know, you can pray for somebody, and you don't have to touch them." Yeah. Right? Like, you could pr- like it's... I'm like, for me, it's like I can self muscle test, so, like, I don't necessarily need somebody to, like, specifically muscle test. Devon James: Mm-hmm. and it doesn't necessarily work for all, all things. I actually had a, a football player in here yesterday, and we were just kinda talking while we were kinda going through his injury that he had gotten this last football game. And he was like, "What do you mean you can treat remotely?" And he was like, "Well, what about for my injury?" Devon James: And I was like, "Well, I mean, for yours, because yours was a physical thing, like you got..." What did he say? He got, well, he got tackled, but he got rolled up on. I don't know. Okay. Yeah, I don't- There was a couple different- Matt Kosterman: I'm not the guy to ask about football ... I'm Devon James: not the girl to ask for it, and I keep saying, like, "You can't play chess." Devon James: Like, "Is there anything else we can do for you?" But I'm supporting him through it, you know, as his doctor mom in- Yeah ... in this sense. But it's like, yeah, I mean, if it's a physical pl- yeah, sometimes I can. There's some things that can get cleared, but, like, for his stuff, yeah, I would, I wanted to dig into his muscle a little bit and kind of reset the origin insertion- Mm-hmm Devon James: and that type of thing. But I've had people that I've never met even in this office, and, like, they live in New York, and, I have one that's, like, in Georgia, and she has completely, like, transformed her whole life. Like, it's like it's like you can't- Matt Kosterman: Through the remote energy work ... Devon James: through remote energy healing. Devon James: Mm-hmm. So there's different, there's different ways of doing it. I'm like, I don't know. I'm just really weird. I don't know what else to tell you. I just, I have a lot of really weird skills that- Yeah ... you know, translate- And- ... well this way. Matt Kosterman: And how, and, and how did this all come about? Talk, can, will you talk a little bit about, like, w- what was your, your, your upbringing was not fun. Devon James: My upbringing had some challenges. Has, Matt Kosterman: you know. Devon James: It had some challenges. so- My dad struggled with alcoholism, and I was fortunate that he did about the, when I was about the age of 10. So my mom kind of was like, "Hey, listen, like, this is, we can't do this anymore." Mm-hmm. And so he did go to, like, 90 meetings within 90 days. Devon James: Sometimes he would go twice in a day- Oh, wow ... just to get, like, the quota of, like, 90 meetings in 90 days so he could get his family back. And I was fortunate enough that, like, he did do that. Uh-huh. Like, he did do the work to do that, and so my parents didn't get divorced. so You know, but they Devon James: I love my parents dearly. I've done a significant amount of work. I've recently have just done, like, you know, eight years of therapy- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Devon James: back to back. And so I think part of my training ground was my dad used to be more angry when he would drink. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: And I ... And he would drink after work, and then he would come home to us, to me and my older brother that was five years older, that's five years older than me. Devon James: But I could tell you what kind of mood my dad was in probably miles away from my house. Mm-hmm. And I knew what to do in the house to not set him off. Matt Kosterman: To keep yourself safe. Devon James: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: So, so that's kind of- That, that- ... I think Matt Kosterman: that's- Hy- a super hypervigilance ... heightened. Devon James: Yeah. Yeah. Hypervigilance. And I could always just, um You know, I think he has a lot of sensory things about him, so I could always read the room. Devon James: Mm-hmm. Or I could always kind of regulate different people to kind of be like, "Let's not tip him over." Mm-hmm, Matt Kosterman: mm-hmm. Devon James: Like, "Let's lower your voice, Mom," 'cause she's Portuguese. Like, they just have very loud She's... It's just, you know, we all have it. Uh-hUh-huh. I get... I mean, in that lineage. You know, and then her sisters get involved, and we had a big, loud family, and just, you know, so many different things. Devon James: So but my dad also, like, he was raised by two alcoholics. Yeah. And like, you know, and so his childhood, it was like his parents would get into... And they had five kids, and they would get into a fist fight. And like his... Like, so badly that they would have to take both parents to the hospital, but they would have to take them to separate hospitals because they didn't wanna get DCFS called- Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay Devon James: and have all the children taken away. So and I'm like, "Wow, I knew what it was like to get raised by one alcoholic." Yeah. I can't imagine, like, what it was like to get raised- Two of them ... by two. And then my mom was raised by, her father was also an alcoholic. Mm-hmm. And so I know that, like, my parents did the very best that they could. Devon James: but then I had my own healing work to do, and I kinda started at 19, just trying to do different things of, you know, working through, because I just didn't like the way that I behaved, you know? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I wasn't always the nicest person or making the best choices. And, so I really was kind of on a mission for a very long time to just improve myself. Devon James: Well, at Matt Kosterman: least four years, 'cause you look like you're about 23, Devon James: so. I'm 24, actually. I'm 42. yeah. So and then, yes, and then I got married young. And, and that did not go as well as I hoped. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: And our personalities were pretty different, I think. And I think when I was younger, I had this mindset of like, you know, and at, at that point in time, I was really... Devon James: I got really involved in church, so I was kind of like, "As long as we have God, everything will be okay." Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: And that was not a true statement. No. Right? You need kind of a little bit more than that. Right. I Matt Kosterman: mean, I would argue- It's more of a relationship ... I would, I would argue that we always have God anyway. Matt Kosterman: Like it's- Devon James: For Matt Kosterman: sure ... like, in my knowing of it now. We do, but- But not, but I understand what you're saying. You know what I mean? Like- Yeah, yeah ... it was like- Devon James: Yeah ... that's kinda what I thought. Like- Right ... I was like, everything else will fade away. Right. Like personality styles. Yeah, yeah. Like how clean we like to keep a house. Devon James: Or not. How on time we like to be to things. Or Matt Kosterman: not. Devon James: How... Right. Yeah. Like, all of these different things, and it's just personality-wise, like, we're just so drastically different. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Devon James: We have created a, just my favorite human in the whole wide world, which is our daughter- Mm-hmm ... who's 16 now. but it just... I just, I was focusing so much of my energy trying to change this guy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: And to be honest, like- You know, he could be perfectly fine for somebody else. You know, like, w- who am I- Mm-hmm ... to say that you need to change, like, the gift that God made him to be- Right ... and to be something different? And for him, the same thing. He's like, "Oh, you weren't like how you were when I, we were 20." Devon James: And I was like, "I hope I'm not." Like, phew. Matt Kosterman: Eight years of therapy had to do something. Devon James: You know? I was like, um- Ugh ... "Yeah, I'm not 21-year-old Devon. I'm sorry." Yeah. "Yeah, I have, I actually have an opinion now about things, and they don't align with your opinion about things, and-" Matt Kosterman: And that's okay. Devon James: And that's okay, but you know, for him, he didn't really want that either. Devon James: So it's, it, we were better apart. Yeah. And then, and then I started to try to date some chiropractors, some healers, and then I had this thing where I was like, "Well, as long as we have techniques- ... to, like, bump up against, you know- Uh-huh ... how we need to get healing, right?" Uh-huh. I was like, "We're gonna be fine," except that also doesn't work either. Devon James: You know? Like, because they also have to have, like, they want, like, their wants in life of, like, what their goals are. Like, do they wanna raise a child with me? Yeah. Do they wanna live in suburbia, you know, to raise said child? Do they wanna have a family unit? Do they wanna stay the whole night- Mm-hmm. ... next to me? Devon James: Next to you. Instead of, you know, cotton out at 3:00 AM- Uh-huh-huh ... or whatever, let the record show. Right? Matt Kosterman: Right, Devon James: right, right. You know? Um- But incredible men that taught me so much Matt Kosterman: Well, maybe they were all human design projectors, and projectors can't sleep with other people in the bed Devon James: Possibly. So maybe they're- I don't know. Devon James: I mean, we could have had a workaround I'm a strategist. There could have been a lot of workarounds. I am very flexible. I was married for, like, nine years for a person that was probably completely incompatible for me. Right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Devon James: Like, and we were pretty good. Like, I can- You did all right ... make a lot of things work Yeah We were together for, like, 13 years Matt Kosterman: Wow. Devon James: So, yeah. And now it's been great 'cause I've been with Aiden since, like, 2019, and, like, to have my heart's greatest compliment and to have a human that truly is that, and I have no desire to change him. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: I've been able to do, like, this really intense work for, like, eight years and, and more, and I'm not finished. Devon James: But it's like I've been able, by having that secure, loving relationship, I've been able to really do some incredible healing, and look at this space. Matt Kosterman: And look at this place, and this space, and what you've created. Devon James: Yeah. I was actually gonna purchase a place, and, I found out it had toxic dry cleaning chemicals underneath it. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: I lost $40,000. Matt Kosterman: No kidding. Devon James: Mm-hmm. ' Matt Kosterman: Cause you had a depo- you had a deposit- Devon James: I had to do all this deposit stuff 'cause you have to do this due diligence, and I was getting this $400,000 SBA loan, and all this other stuff. And I was like... I was, I was, I was... still just wasn't in belief that I was in... I, like, had lost, lost the money, you know? Devon James: Uh-huh. And I was, like, thinking about it, like, days later after I realized, like, I had to walk away from the whole deal, and I was in the kitchen, and then I heard him come up, and I, I was having a moment where I was just kind of crying about it. And he caught me, and he's like, "What, what are, what is happening?" Devon James: And I was like, "Nothing. Nothing." He's like, "It's not nothing." Matt Kosterman: It's not nothing. Devon James: What is it? I'm like, "N- I don't wanna talk about it." And he was like, "It's about the money?" He's his own little witch, too. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Devon James: And I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, he goes, "Who gives a shit- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Devon James: about $40,000?" He goes, "You have an incredible idea." Devon James: He goes, "Go and do it." Matt Kosterman: Right. Devon James: He goes, "Don't let this stop you. Go and create this amazing wellness center." And to have somebody that's just, like, so supportive, to be like, "It's okay. If, like, something happens, I got you." Right. "It's okay." Matt Kosterman: Right. It's just money. Devon James: It's just money. He's like, "We can make money. It's okay. Devon James: You lost $40,000. Who cares?" Matt Kosterman: Yep. Devon James: Go make your healing center. Matt Kosterman: And you have. Devon James: And I have. And he helped me build IKEA furniture. He helped me do- ... so much stuff, and I am- And you're Matt Kosterman: still together. Devon James: We're still together. Just Matt Kosterman: IKEA furniture. Devon James: He was like, "Let me have the drill." And I was like, "You kinda screwed up there, you know?" Devon James: Like, you can hold stuff for me, but this stuff is, like- Complicated ... if you don't put it together just right, it will be annoying. It will Matt Kosterman: be Devon James: annoying. Yeah So, and I'm the one that's gonna be annoyed every day. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: So, but he is, he's great So- Matt Kosterman: And I think people, we, I had this conversation, with a woman, Marion, the other day for an episode, and I don't even know if, like, the concept of complex PTSD totally sunk in. Devon James: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: For me, you know, we hear PTSD- Yeah ... and we think bombs going off, people- For sure ... getting killed. it's very, like, pin- you know. Yeah. It might've gone on for three years, but it's... And it's terrible- Devon James: Right ... Matt Kosterman: but it's a certain kind of thing as it's... And I haven't read anything up on this, but, you know, and just- Devon James: Yeah Matt Kosterman: hearing what you're saying and reflecting on my own upbringing as a child with, you know, substance abuse and, I was the same way. It's you're, you're always on alert. Devon James: Always on alert. Matt Kosterman: And, you know, is he coming? You know, my dad, a lot of anger, and there was drinking in the evening, and, and there was verbal abuse, and there was physical- Mm Matt Kosterman: abuse. And, and it just sets up your nervous system in a particular way. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And the... And there's no... and maybe that's the complex part of it. There's no one... There's no, "My buddy got his head blown off," which is an awful thing. Devon James: Awful thing. Matt Kosterman: But it's d- One Devon James: event ... Matt Kosterman: but it's different- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: when it's, like, this constant- Devon James: You're living in it Matt Kosterman: and you're living in it. Yeah. And I actually realized through some work that I did, again, with another guest, Ken Mench, on, who, who wrote this book, Every Baby Hurts, that most likely in the womb I was very uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. I think everybody was probably very uncomfortable because it's not a very big place. Devon James: It's Matt Kosterman: not. And I've never felt comfortable in my body. I've never liked to sit cross-legged like the way that you're sitting. Mm-hmm. My legs don't do that. And I think it came from the womb. I think it ... And then being born into young parents. Devon James: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Very, you know, they were twen- just turned 22, and they had their own set of programming, like you talked about your par- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: you know, your parents. I mean, both my parents' parents were- Yeah ... veterans. One who fought, my mother's father fought in the South Pacific for- Mm-hmm ... four years, I think. Hand-to-hand combat- Yeah ... as a Marine, and he came home and for the next six- 60 years never talked about it. Like, that shit's gonna come out somewhere. Devon James: Like, come out. Maybe it's coming out on you now. Right. It's like the generational DNA. The Matt Kosterman: skip. Devon James: It's like those that didn't talk about it- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Devon James: you know, then you express it. Matt Kosterman: And, and so this, and you know, I've gone, the psychedelic route to clear- Mm-hmm ... so much of that stuff, and the tantric route and, and, and that, but there's all different ways to, to clear the stuff out of our bodies. Matt Kosterman: There is. You did, y- you know, EMDR didn't work for me. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: It b- I went to sleep because that was my protection. My, my defense mechanism is to fall asleep. I literally remember before we were married, I got in a, an argument with my wife, my former wife, and she was yelling at me, and I, like, fell asleep on the couch. Matt Kosterman: Oh. She was so pissed. Devon James: She's like, "How dare you fall asleep on me?" " Matt Kosterman: What are you doing?" But that's just what I did. I just checked out. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: and, and, and that's, and again, like I said the other day, I, and I'm grateful for all of it, and it's got- Mm-hmm ... what got me where I am today. I'm assuming y- you feel similarly, that it was You know, I mean, why did you go into healing? Devon James: Why did I go into healing? 'Cause I took one look around my family and I was like, "This place is pretty forked up." "I think I could do some Matt Kosterman: help here." You can say fuck on the show. It's- Devon James: Can I? All right ... it's, it's 18 plus. All right, good. I was like, "It's pretty fucked up around here," you know? Yeah. And I was like, and I was like- Devon James: "I gotta, I gotta get out," you know? Like, "I gotta get out of here." And, and so I, I left, you know? Like, I, I left and did the best I could. I thought that I would bring the healing back to my family- Hmm ... and it's like when I became a healer, it was like far and few between of people that really wanted it. My dad- Matt Kosterman: With- within your family? Devon James: Within my family. My dad always number one in line for me. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Whatever you wanted to try. Devon James: Whatever I wanted to try, whatever I was learning, he was... My parents have been my biggest supporter. Like, my da- like they were, they came to like every single thing that I was ever involved in. Any, like s- any swim thing, any band thing, any award. Devon James: Like, they, they did so great in so many other different ways. Hmm. And I knew that they always had my back, you know? They always had me. It's just, like could I have an emotionally healing conversation with them? Maybe. About like what was happening in my life. My dad would be like, "Let's, you know, let's, let's beat that guy up. Devon James: Let's this..." You know? Like, and I'd be like, "Okay," like, "I kinda wanna do that, but like I don't think that's gonna help me get over this whole situation," you know? Like, so they just didn't have those types of tools. But you know what? There's like a million different books. There's like a million... I love Brene Brown. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Devon James: I've read like all of her. And by read, I mean I had Brene read it to me, like all of her stuff. And you what? I've had Brene read it to me, right? I do audio, audiobooks, right? Oh, oh, oh. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah, yeah. ' Devon James: Cause that reading thing. Yeah. Like I can comprehend when somebody reads it to me, but- You can hear Matt Kosterman: it, Devon James: yeah Devon James: I can hear it. So, but yeah. I mean, I'm, I- I'm okay with what happened. Right. I feel like maybe... I mean, it would've been great if I didn't have to do all of the complex PTSD work, you know? It was a lot of work. It's, Matt Kosterman: it's a lot. Devon James: You know, and I worked with, like, a different healer out of, like, California for a really long time that did, like, alchemy remedies and different things, and it really helped broaden how to heal people and keep myself safe. Devon James: And then also to kind of, I used to dissociate a lot. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: And now it kinda sucks because I don't dissociate at all. Mm. And so, like, now it's like I really need to get, like, my physical body in better shape. I really need to be exercising, so I would really love to dissociate- Matt Kosterman: Uh-h Devon James: uh-huh ... and then just come back into it after, like, the workout was over, but I can't. Matt Kosterman: Can't do that anymore. Devon James: I can't do that anymore. Yeah, yeah. So, and then it was interesting when I went, switched therapists and I was working with a different therapist that did somatic healing, and she does other stuff. She's also a shaman, so I think you... Not all EMDR therapists know how to do it really well. Devon James: Okay. But she does some other- Matt Kosterman: Other stuff ... Devon James: really amazing stuff. I love her. So sh- um Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I Devon James: mean- So- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Devon James: go ahead ... yeah, so then, okay, I remember it now. So then it was like I found out we were doing something, she was doing body work on me and, some table work, so she also muscle tests. And, she was... Devon James: And I realized, I was like, "Oh, I dissociate from my feelings." Matt Kosterman: Mm. Mm. Devon James: So I had done, like I didn't do the body thing, but I had dissociate from my feelings, and that's why I was having, like, panic attacks because I would dissociate from my feelings, and then I would come back into my, my, my feeling body, and then it would be like all of my feelings had printed and, like, I was receiving them, and it was, like, all too much at one time. Matt Kosterman: Too much at once, 'cause you basically were avoiding them. Devon James: I was avoiding them. A- Matt Kosterman: avoiding feeling them. Devon James: Avoiding feelings, so. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and actually when you were talking about people coming to you during COVID- Devon James: Mm-hmm ... Matt Kosterman: and, dumping all of their stuff on you, I mean, one of my first thoughts was wow, you know, I hope you're clearing that stuff. Matt Kosterman: I hope you're- Mm-hmm ... you know, either putting up the shields or you've got the big vortex in front of you that's- Yeah ... sucking it down 'cause it's a real th- like healer fatigue is a real thing when you take on people's stuff. Do you, how do you work through, like- Devon James: I don't take on people's stuff. I let them- Okay, you never have Devon James: have their own stuff. Matt Kosterman: Okay, that's never been a thing. Devon James: There are things that I think about sometimes, and there might be things that are, like, he- like, that are heavy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: Um... Matt Kosterman: But you're able to let it pass through. Devon James: I'm able for the most part I think now, like for sure now, to really let it pass through. I think I had to learn how to not take it on completely. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: And, and now I'm significantly better. But I've been, like, practicing for, like, 15 years now- Yeah ... so I'm much better at it, and then I'm much better at taking care of my body knowing how many resources I have. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Devon James: And, like, there were times in my clinic where, like, I had to stop accepting patients, like new patients for a while, and people were like, "Why don't you just work more days?" Devon James: And I'm like, "Well, if I worked more days, I would see more people." Right. And there was a stint of, of my practice where I had a significant amount of like incest and rape victims Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: And I do really, really well in that area. I also do really well with, like, with, like, narcissistic abuse, like abuse clients. Devon James: Because, like, a lot of that then kind of ties into the way that their nervous system functions. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: Then a lot of times how their immune system functions, because a lot of times they'll get, like, autoimmune conditions and chronic illness and things that don't get resolved. Yeah. So I do really well with that. Devon James: So there was a point where, like, you know, if I had, like, 15 in a day, w- it was, like, a lot. A lot. So I don't have as m- as many, in the office, and a lot of those clients have gotten significantly better- Okay ... and they're Matt Kosterman: doing really great. Yeah, amazing. Devon James: so ... But I mean, but that's a very heavy to- that would, that would be very heavy for, like, anybody. Matt Kosterman: It's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot. I mean, I, again, I, with the body work, I worked on a young woman who's since passed away, but had abuse from a gymnastics coach, female gymnastics coach. Okay. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and I was doing heart opening, physical heart opening- Mm-hmm ... work on her chest, and she had a huge release and I felt the shock of it- Devon James: Yeah Matt Kosterman: literally, en- energy of it travel up into my arms. Yeah. It was really trippy. Devon James: Yeah. And it's at least, I feel like, I did some work where it's like I don't feel people's stuff inside of my body anymore. Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Devon James: So I feel it outside of me. I can kind of read it like I would, like, a magazine. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: People read magazines anymore? Devon James: Not Matt Kosterman: you. Devon James: Not me. 'Cause Matt Kosterman: it's Devon James: reading. Well, there's a lot of pictures in magazines. Oh, there's- I don't mind them. So. Matt Kosterman: Skip the captions, though. Devon James: It's fine. It's just like, "What else is going on with Taylor Swift? Did she approve this message? I'm not sure." so, but, but I do see stuff. Uh-huh. So I will see it. So, like, as I'm reading through their intake I have it now in there. Devon James: Like, do you, did you have any of this kind of abuse? But even before I had that, I could usually probably see the person's abuse. You Matt Kosterman: could see Devon James: it. Or while I was, like, treating them I could see it, you know? Mm-hmm. And, like, they, they may know or they may not even know. We could just be shooting the shit and laughing about what their kids did that weekend while I'm clearing, like, generational trauma or the trauma of, like, some sort of abuse. Devon James: Like, I don't make them relive it. Yeah. They don't really need to. If it's coming up to the surface- Right ... and I can easily kind of scoop it out and, and, like, bring it to the light to heal it, like, there's no need to be like, "Hey, remember- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah ... Devon James: when your cousin did this horrible thing to you?" Horrible thing Matt Kosterman: to you. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Devon James: Yeah. I won't. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I, yeah, it was Laura's guides who told me late, l- pretty late in my healing journey that I'd had sexual abuse when I was, you know, seven years old. I have no memory of it, and it totally makes sense the way things were presenting. And then I did experience a bit, experienced, not a bit, but I experienced the energy leaving my body during a, a, a 5-MeO toad experience that was- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: harrowing. Devon James: That's amazing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and it l- it was down there in my left pelvis, pelvic- Yeah ... side, and didn't wanna go. Yeah. And was getting pushed out, and- Right ... so it, it, it was very, it was very viscerally real. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: but no memory of it, and it's- Yeah ... it's gone and all that. So which, it sort of, you know, so what, who comes to see you? Matt Kosterman: You're talking, like it's a, who, who- Who comes to see me? ... who do, you know. Now you have this huge- I have a huge list ... array of, of- Devon James: Anybody. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. No, no. Like- Devon James: No, it's not anybody. It's, like, I, I would say people Matt Kosterman: come- Bring me your tired, your sick, your poor, your, your, your huddled Devon James: masses. Yeah, your tired, yeah. Devon James: Hopefully you're not too poor. You know? But I do, I'm in network with Blue Cross Blue Shield, BPO. Okay. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: but and I t- I'm out of network with other insurance. There's some that I don't take. Like, I don't, Cigna just always causes a problem, so I don't take them. but so who comes to see me? So I do really well with, like, chronic illness, usually people that have been to multiple doctors- Mm-hmm Devon James: and nobody can kinda figure them out. I work with kids. Kids are my absolute favorite. I really do love them. As I have gotten better, you know, 15 years into it, the more complex kids I get. So I do treat a lot of kids that are on the spectrum- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Devon James: that, have either developmental delays or physical delays or GI issues or e- Matt Kosterman: Autoimmune Devon James: like autoimmune, any kind of interesting, like, you know- All kinds of things. Like, those kids don't scare me at all. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I work very, very careful with children all the time, so, like, their no means no- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Devon James: 100% of the time. So, and s- and, like, and it depends, like, 'cause sometimes if they're... The work that I do, it is kinda so strong or powerful, so, like, we use those little energetic vials that you've experienced, right? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon James: And so for, like, a kid that's, like, really autistic, it's like they can't even have that on their chest. Like, it's too much for them. Oh, wow. So I even have to, like, run them away from them. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: Or it's like as they come in, like they, they won't even... They're like, "I'm not gonna get on your table." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: I'm like, "Okay." Like, I always give them two options, like, "Do you want me to help you on the table or you want me- Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm ... Devon James: or do you wanna get up by yourself?" And, like, I had one, he's, he was, like, three. He looked at me, thought about it, and he's like, "I don't wanna do either." And I was like, "Well, that's never... Devon James: I've never heard that from a child before." Like, he's so smart. They always Matt Kosterman: took one of the- They always took one of the choices. Devon James: He's like, "I'm not doing it." And, like, I've also worked with kids that are non-verbal. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: so I feel like we have, like, our own little telepathy thing- Mm-hmm ... where they can tell me, and I try to tell the parents, like, what they're telling me. Devon James: And I can see why they're non-verbal 'cause I've had some of them where I was like, "I can't even really describe to you, like, what they're showing to me." Mm. It's so incredible. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: So I can see why they don't- Like, no, no words ... have words. I, I... Like, to describe, like, what they're trying to say, I'm like, "Let me try to put it into words." Devon James: It's not gonna do it justice on what he showed, on what the, you know, the child showed me. Um- Matt Kosterman: Have you listened to Telepathy Tapes at all? Devon James: No. Matt Kosterman: Have you heard of it? Devon James: No. Matt Kosterman: Oh, it's fascinating- Yeah ... podcast about, non-verbal- Devon James: Okay ... Matt Kosterman: humans and how they're all communicating with each other. The... And they showed it, quote-unquote, "scientifically." Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. Okay? But they all go to a place called The Hill- Okay ... where they meet. my other friend- That's cool ... and podcast guest, Dr. Therese Rowley, has been doing work with them. She also can communicate with them in the non-verbal. Devon James: Okay. Matt Kosterman: and, and, you know, senses their empathy. Yeah. Like, yeah. Devon James: They're always so funny. Devon James: Like, so I have my own energetic vials and stuff like that, or, like, there's some that are in research development, too, and it was so funny. I had one, I was running it, and it was, like, it wasn't my vial. It was somebody else's vial, and I ran it on him, and it was rain effects. And- Matt Kosterman: Rain effects? Devon James: Rain effects. Devon James: And it was, uh... He said to me kind of like telepathy-wise, he was like, "This is missing about five things." Like, I'm so sorry. It's not my vial. Uh-huh. I, like, believe you. Uh-huh. Or it's like I'll go to do something- ... and then they'll start doing some- And I'll be like, "What?" Like, wh- what are... That's not how I would do it. Devon James: And then all of a sudden they, like, use it, and then they, like, clear it themselves. And it's so funny with them because, like, they will be... Like, when they're ready to do work, like, they're so connected. And then when they're done, it's like I could not connect with them- Doesn't matter ... to save my life. Devon James: Doesn't matter. Like, they're just like, boom, they're done. And then they're just... I'm like, "Where, where'd you go? I would've, like, closed you up better. I would've done, like, you know?" Uh-huh. And they're like, "Nope, I'm done." I'm done. I'm out. Then they're Devon James: done. Um- Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I mean, that's an- So yeah ... yeah, incredible intuition. I mean, you- Yeah ... I, I, Devon James: I- It's fun. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: So and then I love working with those moms and those families. and I have, like, a huge play area in my office, right? So I have this, like, adorable, like, like, a house that you would put outside. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Devon James: You know, I have it inside. Devon James: Yeah, yeah. And I have, like, this, like, um- Matt Kosterman: Pee-wee's Playhouse ... Devon James: Pee-wee's Playhouse- ... situation. you know, it's so cute. It looks like a little cottage on the beach, you know? And then it's like I have, I have so many toys and things for them that they can just play and have fun. And, so they love coming here. Devon James: I, I actually purposely did that so that way they would be upset when they left here. Matt Kosterman: Ah. Devon James: Like, I wanted them- They don't wanna come back ... to be like, "I wanna go to Dr. Devon's." Like, "I wanna go..." and then it's great because then they can play, and I can treat their, their parents and stuff like that, and be able just to be a place- Matt Kosterman: Mm Devon James: that just allows their kid to be the kid and I, and like, and their parents don't always have to, like, apologize. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Mm-hmm. Devon James: It's like sometimes when you have, like, a kid that has their own struggles, it's like these parents, like, they go to different places, and I don't know what these doctors do, but it's, like, not nice. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Devon James: You know? And to provide f- like, healing for this, these types of families, you know? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: is, is really nice. And then Matt Kosterman: the parents feel like they're always having to apologize for the chi- Devon James: Yeah ... child's behavior. And it's like you never have to apologize for that. And I get it. Sometimes, like, if something happens, and, like, they'll have a meltdown in the office, and I'll be like, "You know what? Devon James: Not today. We're not gonna force you today." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. " Devon James: It's a no for you today." And then the mom will go home, and I'm like, "I'll work on them remotely. Don't worry about it." Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know? We can shift it. Yeah. I can shift. I can shift pretty easy. Matt Kosterman: And so what are some, what are, what are some... You sa- You mentioned one success, success story, at least about somebody who you were working on remotely who was in New York or something. Devon James: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And so what are some of your sort of taking- Success stories? Yeah, taking people- Devon James: Yeah. So, even when I didn't know much, right? Like, um- So I had one client, HSV vasculitis. So that's like a strep infection that kinda turns autoimmune. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: Um- I do have so much love for this individual because I ... It was earlier in practice, so my attachment was different to those patients. Devon James: Although I do love you very much. Oh, thank you. You know? But, um- I'm feeling the love ... you know, she was in high school, and unfortunately, so there was, she was really good friends with unfortunately a little girl that was murdered- Oh, shit ... in, like, Indian Head Park. And she was actually supposed to hang out with that girl that evening, and then she didn't hear from her, and then she found out on the news that her best friend was killed. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Devon James: And so I think the emotional shock and stress of that, tied kind of with a strep infection. It, like, later on then turned into- Created, created an energetic opening ... yeah, HSV vasculitis, which is pretty much, like, an autoimmune condition with the vasculature of your blood vessels, and you kinda, you have Devon James: She had these open sores on her body, and you also have these open sores inside your body. And that one, she took me a while. It was like a year journey together of really pulling her, and, like, her adrenals were so tanked. There were so many things that were going on with her. and I did have to, at that point, I had to pull her out of school, and I had to be, like, her main doctor that was writing all these letters that they had to supplement her, her schooling- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm Devon James: outside because she just physically was not able medically to be able to be in school. It was such a, um ... But she, I treat her kids now. I went to her wedding. Oh, Matt Kosterman: no kidding. Devon James: Mm-hmm. She's doing really great. She's a nurse. She's, she- Oh ... she does such great stuff. She hasn't had a flare-up of anything. Matt Kosterman: That's, and all, all with- Devon James: All with just the different- Devon James: vials and muscle testing and clearing- Yeah, muscle testing, applied kinesiology, nutrition. Nutrition. So it's always, like, emotional work, nutritional work. Like, what are you eating? What nutritional supplements maybe do you need for a period of time? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: what, what happened to you? Let's give space for that. Devon James: Let's heal that. And then structural things, you know? Yeah. So adjustments here and there. Getting the, the brain and the spinal column and the rest of the body, like, connecting with each other and providing- Yeah ... healing. So... Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and, and that was one of the things that I, that I liked was that you, there, there was some s- some supplements that you had me take- Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: along the way, but it was, it was like, "Okay, you're done with those now." It was- Yeah ... some of these places, some of these people, whatever their model is, like, you know, "You're gonna take this supplement, and you're gonna keep ordering it from me-" Devon James: Mm-hmm, for the rest of your Matt Kosterman: life ... you know, for the rest of your life. Matt Kosterman: And bodies change. Devon James: Bodies change. Sometimes you need it, sometimes you don't need it. Right. And sometimes I'll be like, "This is a really g-..." I'll be like, "Bring all your supplements in," and I'll be like, "Okay, these are good supplements. It's just right in this moment you don't need it. So just keep them for later." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: Then if you, something happens- Mm-hmm ... and we have, like, a good pharmacy in your house of good nutritional things that we can pull from. Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah. I have a pharmacy. Devon James: I know. Beautiful. It's beau- I have a pharmacy too. It's like our whole, one whole level in our pantry is just, like, all supplements- All- ... of, like, active supplements, inactive supplements. Devon James: Inactive Matt Kosterman: supplements. Devon James: You know? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and Devon James: now I- We all have our bins ... Matt Kosterman: and now I m- I muscle test myself on- Devon James: Yeah ... Matt Kosterman: when I need stuff. Um- That's Devon James: so great. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Devon James: We're actually having an open house party- Matt Kosterman: Oh ... Devon James: that everybody's, and I, I need- It- ... to send you the links for that Matt Kosterman: too Send me the links. I, I'm not sure wh- when this'll air, if it'll air, wh- 'cause I just got your letter, in fact, last night. Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. I haven't even opened it. When is the open house? Devon James: It's October 3rd. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I won't- It's intuitive ... this, this won't be out yet. Devon James: Okay. Apologies, but- Well, then you'll miss it. We might have another one. Matt Kosterman: Have another Devon James: one. I'll have another one. But, yeah, it's great. So at that we're gonna do, I'm gonna, in my room we're gonna teach muscle testing. Devon James: So- Matt Kosterman: Oh, you are? Devon James: Okay ... yeah. It's gonna be like a carnival situation- ... kind of thing. So, like, each practitioner- Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh ... Devon James: I, like, thought of this idea when I was like, I got ditched at Lollapalooza, 'cause Eddie wanted to go to Lollapalooza. Okay. And I was like, "I get how you wanna go. Like, I have to go with you." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: You know? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: And, her- I don't even wanna go ... and her friend ditched me pretty quickly. Oh, Matt Kosterman: I'm sure. Devon James: Like, into it. Oof. And then it was like you cannot find them in a crowd of people, but I was there, you know? Yeah. So it's fine. I do well talking to strangers for the most part. Um- Matt Kosterman: So this is when this idea of a carnival came to you? Devon James: Yeah. Like a healing- I was kind of- ... healing Matt Kosterman: carnival ... Devon James: it was like that. It was a mix between, like ... I think I was talking to somebody, they were like, "I just go here to get activated." And I was thinking like, "Wow, that's not what I came here for," you know? Like, and then I found out, like, you could stand in line and get all this free stuff, and I was like, "That's really cool." Devon James: I'll, like, get some free stuff. Sure. You know? Sure, Matt Kosterman: sure. Devon James: And then it was like, so each of the rooms, it's like we're gonna do a fun, interactive thing of, like, what that person's specialty is. Oh, Matt Kosterman: amazing, Devon James: yeah. And then it's like, and then you're gonna earn these raffle tickets that I've created. And so they're also gonna have, like, a pass- it's a passport to wellness. Devon James: So you're gonna get a passport when you walk in. Okay. And then you're gonna go through each room, and then you're gonna get a stamp in your passport. And then if you, if you've completed the thing- Yeah ... and then you'll get these raffle tickets, and then you can enter them into drawings. Matt Kosterman: Amazing. Devon James: In each individual room or into, like, a grand poobah prize. Devon James: Okay. I don't know. Okay. We have to- Matt Kosterman: Figure that out. Devon James: Yeah. But we might do, like, we might do more than just one, you know? And have them periodically Have it ... 'cause I feel like it could be a fun- Matt Kosterman: It sounds fun. Devon James: It reminded me, I had like a core memory activated of like fifth grade, and they did some sort of carnival in an elementary school. Devon James: And, it was like I was mastering the cakewalk situation- Okay ... probably 'cause I could read the room and figure the whole thing out. And it was like my little, you know, sugar addict self was like- I know ... I walked out with so many, like- Oh, Matt Kosterman: how many Devon James: cake- ... chocolate chip cookies, cupcakes and stuff. I was like, "Yeah." Devon James: Yeah. Yeah. You know? And I was like... So it's so funny, I was telling like Haley and, and, Julie that are gonna be in the yoga room, I'm like, "We should do like musical mats." Like, you have to like run around the mats or whatever and have the music and then stop it. It... Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon James: And I think they like were not in for the chaos. Devon James: They didn't want the chaos. Matt Kosterman: They're like, "It's just yoga, Devon." Devon James: Yoga. Matt Kosterman: It's Devon James: Om. They were like, "What?" They're like, "We're gonna be like doing stretching and poses." And I was like, "That sounds terrible." Matt Kosterman: What, Devon James: no cakes? Maybe we'll do musical- No cookies? And- Maybe we'll do musical mats in my room. Of course. We'll do like places where you muscle test different things. Devon James: Is it positive? Is it negative? You know. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Will you start with, what do you, like, the, the sway test or the fingers? What one do you Devon James: like? What do you- I think even, I think we'll do like the sway test. Matt Kosterman: The sway it s- seems Devon James: to- The sway seems the easiest. Like, the show me the yes, you kind of, your body rocks forward. Devon James: Show me the no, your body rocks back. And then, and then we can do... I'm gonna, I'll probably have to go buy like cigarettes or like, I'm gonna buy Matt Kosterman: like- Oh, buy Devon James: something ... I'm gonna buy some things that are like- Bad for you ... we know that they're bad. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Devon James: Right? And then- Matt Kosterman: Do you run into people, speaking of muscle testing and the sway test, 'cause I've had a, I've shown it to a couple people, and I'll go, you know, "Say love, love, love," and they go backwards. Devon James: Oh, wow. They have a problem with love? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Devon James: Yeah. So it's a tricky- It just- It's always about the question that you ask- Yeah ... and how you ask it and if you're okay and congruent with it. Matt Kosterman: And I saw, and I, I did it for a friend recently, and she's like, "Oh, yeah." She's like, "Oh, no," like- Devon James: She's like, "No love for me." Devon James: Right. And she's like backing away. Matt Kosterman: Right. So. Yeah. And I've had it, you know- Devon James: Have a box of money maybe, and then we'll see how people... Maybe we can clear it while they're Matt Kosterman: doing it. Maybe you can clear it. Maybe, yeah. Devon James: Have to get a box of money first. Matt Kosterman: Get a, get a bag of cash. Don't tell them what it is. Devon James: Yeah, and be like, "How are you with this?" Matt Kosterman: Right. Is it pulling you forward? Is it pulling you back? Devon James: Wow. Matt Kosterman: That could be interesting Devon James: Could be fun. Yeah, we can do hidden things too. See, look- Matt Kosterman: Yeah ... Devon James: all this expansion Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that was what I th- that was what, what Hawkins did with, with his te- like, he had rooms of people, and he'd have envelopes, and one had artificial vitamin C, and the other had- Devon James: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: something natural, I don't remember. Yeah And they were blind envelopes, and, like, 100% of the time, the body would pull forward towards the natural thing- Mm-hmm ... and pull away from the unnatural thing. Devon James: That's cool Matt Kosterman: In a blind test. Devon James: Yeah Matt Kosterman: To show that there is a higher intelligence- Yeah ... than this thing that's sitting on top of our shoulders Devon James: That's a good idea. Devon James: We can do blind testing. Matt Kosterman: Blind testing. See what... Yeah. Devon James: I like it Matt Kosterman: See what comes up. Devon James: Expanding my- Yeah ... Lollapalooza experience. Matt Kosterman: With the Within Reach Lollapalooza. Yeah. With the Within Reach Palooza. Devon James: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: It doesn't quite roll off the tongue the same way. Devon James: It doesn't, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Well, this has been amazing. Matt Kosterman: Thanks so much for your time. Devon James: Thank you. I appreciate Matt Kosterman: you. And for doing this. I appreciate you, and, we'll put all the links in there, but is it, is it withinreachhealing.org? Devon James: No. .com .com Withinreachhealing.com Matt Kosterman: Withinreachhealing.com. You can find Dr. Devon and her merry band of healers. Devon James: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cool. Devon James: Amazing. Matt Kosterman: All right. That's it for today. That's it. Thanks very much for listening