Richard Graves (00:01.41)
Well, Max, it's fantastic, first of all, to have you on the Science for Sport podcast. Welcome along.

Maximilian Martin (00:07.286)
Hi Richard, thank you for having me.

Richard Graves (00:09.56)
It's been quite a year for you, quite a year for Enhance and quite a year for the sports science community because obviously back in May there was the inaugural Enhance Games hosting Las Vegas, Nevada. A lot of publicity around that and dare I say it as well, some unexpected results I would think for many neutral or casual observers. Before we get into that though, Max, tell our viewers on our YouTube channel Science for Sport and our listeners on the podcast a little bit about yourself, your background.

and how you came to be the CEO of Enhanced and staging the first Enhanced games.

Maximilian Martin (00:43.202)
Yeah, very happy to. And it's it's a pretty exciting journey that we've been through. you're absolutely right. And it's a little bit of an unconventional way, call it the way that I I got exposed to Enhanced and and how we ended up hosting this event. I'm originally from Germany, started my career in investment banking, did that in London for a couple of years, before I moved on to

Found my first business, which was in the Bitcoin mining space. That was in 2020, in the middle of COVID, and we came across an opportunity to

purchased the largest order of Bitcoin and mining equipment ever globally to that date. And so we raised a a ton of capital. We raised in total, I think, fifty million euros in in equity and more than a hundred in debt and placed that across two orders. The first one was the biggest at the time, the second one was to even two thirds larger than that. And within a very short period of time we built data centers across the US, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands and Germany and we're mining Bitcoin. ended up selling that business.

a year and a half roughly later to a global data center business with part of their management team and then moved on like after we started the business, did the integration and then then moved on. And I was working together with my co-founder of the Bitcoin mining business, Christian Angermeyer, who's also a co-founder of Enhanced, on a variety of different projects. And in the summer of 2023, Aaron D'Souza, who is the third founder of Enhanced, came to Christian and myself with the idea about disrupting the Olympics at the time.

as you you know from being so active in sports yourself, the Olympics is the biggest sporting institution I guess we have on the planet. and there has been

Maximilian Martin (02:20.376)
Constantly, I would say, opportunities to think about things differently, particularly when it comes to enhancements in sports. When we look at other industries, like for example, Hollywood, you know, all the Marvel superheroes are enhanced. Hugh Jackman doesn't look the way he does because he just eats chicken and rice and works out five times a week and gets seven hours of sleep a night. no, he does that because he's enhanced. if you look at executives, you know, top executives like Jeff Bezos openly enhanced. And so the question was

Why do we not allow athletes the people that actually need it the most? Because being an athlete at that level is so taxing on the body and completely unhealthy. To benefit from the same science, literally everyone else can. And then if you look even further, you know, there's been doping violations since the instigation of doping rules, and they will forever continue. There's even anonymous research that shows that

or anonymized research with Olympians that show that forty-three percent of Olympians admit to using banned substances while only one percent is getting caught. And you know about all the stories that come out years later of people having tested positive, giving swept under the rug,

which is massively unfair and also unsafe for athletes. Because the reason why they're actually able to circumvent the testing is because they take newly developed drugs that are not well researched and they take additional drugs on top of it to hide what they're taking in the first place. Let's them circumvent the testing, but the price they pay for that is with their health. And there's also other studies that show that

Olympians on average are willing to sacrifice five years of their life and die earlier for an Olympic gold medal. The desire to win, especially if there's the platform only once every four years, say in a hundred meter sprint, you get ten seconds once every four years to win that gold medal or medal in general. People are willing to take risks. And so our approach was let's take what's happening in the shadows, put it out in the open, put the right clinical and medical supervisory framework in place to make sure that the athletes that choose to enhance can do it.

Maximilian Martin (04:16.632)
safely. And so it's really all about providing choice. And so what our athletes are allowed to do is to take FDA approved substances under the supervision of a doctor to enhance their performance. Now we didn't abandon testing in total. We're just not doing drug testing in the traditional sense. But what we're doing instead is health testing. So every athlete before we sign them

We actually do a full medical analysis of them. Very similar to football clubs. If a p Men United signs a player, they run the full analysis of their health and then they monitor them over time. And that's what we're doing as well. And we have certain safety standards within that. That's like blood, urine, saliva sampling, images of the heart, other organs, musculoskeleton analyses. And only if an athlete is continued to be what we consider safe and healthy, then they are allowed into competition.

Because at the end of the day, if we also think about it in a a different drug, alcohol, and an athlete would be so much overusing alcohol that they would be unsafe to compete or unhealthy, we would also not allow them to compete. So we're very, very much focused and centered all around athlete health and safety. And only if they pass those screenings, they're allowed to compete. And so that's how this all started. Christian and I then after Aaron came to us with the idea, invested big time and basically since day one I've been building out the business together with Aaron.

Up until the summer of last year when I was promoted CEO and took over the business since then.

Richard Graves (05:44.735)
Okay well you've already raised a number of issues that I want to delve a little bit deeper into there. I should say before we go any further, since you mentioned Hugh Jackman's name, I don't know how he gets the shape that he is in film so I'll distance myself away from that but be that as it may, because of some of the things you've highlighted there, the enhanced games in concept raised a lot of controversy. know people think way back to the 88 Olympics and Ben Johnson when he was found to

Maximilian Martin (05:47.628)
Yeah. Sorry, I was like jumping in.

Richard Graves (06:14.12)
use anabolic steroids and strips of the gold medal in the men's 100m title for a long time, it's been highly frowned upon and been outright banned to use illegal substances in competitive world professional sports. So in this context, when you decided to set up the first ever enhanced games, what does enhanced mean in this instance?

Maximilian Martin (06:39.874)
What do you mean, with regards to Ben Johnson?

Richard Graves (06:42.456)
No, no, not Ben Johnson, but in the context of enhanced games, what athletes are allowed to use, not use, what does enhanced mean in this context?

Maximilian Martin (06:52.794)
So enhanced aha, okay, I got it. So enhanced means for us, if an athlete is taking something that would typically get them banned from Olympic competition. So for example, right, if I look at doping regulations and the list of banned substances, it's roughly 4,000 substances that the athletes can't take. That list is breathing every year. So in the early 2000s, there was a limit on caffeine, for example, that you could take. If you were, for example, the equivalent of four espresso shots.

If you had taken just four espresso shots before a race and got tested afterwards, you would have considered to be doped because you overwent on the caffeine limit.

that rule doesn't exist anymore. Athletes today drink tons of Red Bull before they go into competition to be very high and very much on caffeine because it helps them with their performance. So for us it it really means to be enhanced, to take substances that would get you banned from Olympic competition. What is a very, very important distinction though for me is that nothing that is illegal is a very interesting terminology because there's two ways of illegal. One is illegal under the law and one is illegal in sports.

our athletes are not y allowed to utilize any substances that are illegal under the law. This is why we are so clear on FDA approved substances. For example, I'm sure you know everything in the peptide space that's happening at the moment, our athletes were not allowed to take peptides that basically here in New York everyone is taking because they are not approved substances.

So even though the athletes wanted to take, for example, BPC one fifty seven, TB five hundred, they were not allowed to do so because they're not regulated and therefore, you know, substances that they can take. Now that's very important. and and that's what it means for us if an athlete is enhanced.

Richard Graves (08:37.624)
And with that in mind then, just to set the context of the enhanced games themselves, what is it you fundamentally believe is wrong with the way mainstream sports approaches performance enhancement generally?

Maximilian Martin (08:51.852)
Yeah. I think what's wrong is that we expect these athletes to perform at levels that are really unhealthy to their bodies. And you know, you see this in in basically every sport. The stress and if you just look at for example athletes when they get into forties, fifties, the consequences of having performed at that that level for so long is is is insane. I have

on the roster of enhanced with so many athletes, for example, that had to undergo surgeries, particularly the swimmers. The swimmers, on average, have minimum one or two shoulder surgeries, call it, throughout their career. One athlete, Andrei Govorov, speaks about this very openly, had to get a shoulder surgery and the doctor was recommending him the exact same recovery protocol from the surgery that you and I would have gotten. But there were substances included that would have gotten him banned

from Olympic sport. So he had to suffer through the recovery much more than any other person would have. That has zero performance enhancing benefits. We're just trying to get him back to normal and speed up the recovery, like for any other patient we would have. And so that I think is we're actually limiting the athletes while expecting from them so much.

which I think is flawed. And then additionally on top of that I think, you know, one of the greatest goods that we have as people is scientific progress. If I look at how much science has evolved, for example, in in Olympic sports, 2024 in Paris was the fastest track that was ever produced.

If I look at the track 100 years ago, it was it was a a dirt strip where the athletes dug holes because they didn't have starting blocks. Spike technology for the shoes gets improved every single year. Other sports, record sports, rackets get improved all the time. We have so much technological advancement everywhere.

Maximilian Martin (10:37.794)
But in when it comes to our health enhancements, that's where we are very flaky on it. And that's what I think is is flawed. And then we also know that athletes are still choosing to circumvent and cheat. And that's what makes it so unfair. many of the doctors that are on our medical commission, many doctors that are not that I've met, people from Wada, tell me that doping tests are not doping tests, but IQ tests.

Because it's very simple to overcome it. No, but it's it's it's a it's a truth. And so the stories of athletes that I have that came in second at certain events that have competed for ten plus years against the person that came in first, that knew that that person shouldn't have been capable of doing what they did to win that kind of gold medal, because it didn't get tested positive, there's there's infinite stories of it. So what we're trying to do is to just level set the playing field.

the law is the highest regulator of what we can or cannot do. I don't believe there should be a sporting body on top of that to regulate what young athletes can take or not take. The law is what dictates that. So the only thing that we can do is try to create an environment where we make it as safe and medically supervised for athletes as possible.

Richard Graves (11:47.449)
Okay, let's focus a little bit then on the enhanced games themselves that took place, as we say, last May in Vegas. There were 42 athletes from 24 nations that took part, believe. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of this. Only one world record fell, which I found really interesting because I think I'm not speaking out of turn here when I say the common perception was if you've got enhanced athletes performing, they will shatter world records. The only world record to fall was by Kolomiev, who broke the 50 meter freestyle.

world record in the swimming pool. So what did you and your team of experts take from the games that perhaps you didn't know before they started?

Maximilian Martin (12:27.584)
It's a great question and look, my personal expectation was that we would break more world records too. I was very vocal about it. I thought we're gonna break five. but at the end of the day, life sports is life sports and you never know what's gonna happen. there's so much more than allowing athletes to take enhancements to break in a world record than we think. And so you could give me, for example, all the drugs under the sun, I'm never gonna

able to dunk a basketball. It's just not possible. I don't just have it in me, yeah. I'm never gonna be able to swim quicker than any sixteen year old amateur swimmer with all the training and all the drugs in the world. It's just I'm not that kind of athlete. And so there's much more.

Richard Graves (13:04.178)
And that's the other thing as well, wasn't it? During the games, competitors, both enhanced and non-enhanced, were able to compete side by side.

Maximilian Martin (13:11.926)
Exactly, yes. And that that's that's the core to it because because it's all about choice. It's allowing athletes to compete and for the natural athletes they knew that they were competing against enhanced athletes. So I I think that was that's great, it's really transparent and that much makes it fair in my opinion, because you really know what you're up against and you have the same opportunities. we had two athletes that broke world records in training.

Arlie Mendes and Beatrice Piron. Both of those athletes got injured at the games and had to withdraw from competition. And I had one more athlete, Bodhi. Bodhi was Bodhi Santavi. great weightlifter. He was really on track to do it, but he just

didn't do it on the day. Just happens. And Thor similarly was also not not able to do it, which I thought he he would. but that's just the you know the thing about live sports. And once again, like as well, the athletes were competing for this one shot that they had, all the eyes of the world on them. And there's so much more that goes into like your mental ability to perform and take that and be in the right mindset to perform, than just taking the drugs. Now what I would say though on average,

is that if you look at our overall roster of athletes, you know, we did have a lot of athletes that were in their prime that were just meddling at the Olympics or the World Championships the year prior, that had great opportunities to break records. But then we also had a lot of athletes that came out of retirement to p compete with us and get back into the sport. And when you look at the total number of personal bests that were achieved that night, I think it was twenty one personal bests, that I think is a much bigger testament of that enhancements actually work.

Across the 42 athletes that we have, we had 36 that were enhanced with us, another two I think that were enhanced outside of the program that we set up.

Maximilian Martin (15:03.314)
And what was fascinating is to see that athletes in their 30s were performing better than they were in their early 20s. And so for example, one swimmer named Megan Romano, she's 34 at the games. She was, when she was in her prime, swimming for Team USA and won two world championships with Team USA. And she was swimming quicker at 34 than when she was when she was 21, when she set her previous person the best.

So not only was she performing better, but also all of her health markers were better than they've ever been before, which was phenomenal to see. Or Cody Miller, also 34 at the Games, 10 years prior in 2016, he won two gold medals at the Olympics in Rio. Cody beat his personal best that night as well. And so that I think is is even more inspirational than seeing, you know, a 27-year-old athlete who's already scraping a world record and with the help of enhancements just gets there over that final finish line, is to see like the massive

impact that enhancements can have on athletes you know into their thirties when they're typically not able to perform anymore that well, feeding their younger selves. And so that I think is is even more exciting to see the impact of enhancement on those.

Richard Graves (16:09.044)
It's exciting, it's positive, but obviously it's well documented that with using substances of a certain nature there are side effects, are ramifications. So what measures have you and the team at Enhanced taken to ensure that those participating understand the full ramifications of the substances they're potentially using?

Maximilian Martin (16:31.488)
Yeah, that's d also a great question. So there's been a lot of education that we had with every single athlete about the potential side effects of enhancements. just like with every use of drug, like all of the drugs that the athletes were taking were prescribed to them by doctors. And in a very similar fashion, if you and I go to the GP and he puts us on, you know, r like

gives us a prescription for something, also tells you one in a million cases a person dies, you know? So like it's it's the same way that we get prescription drugs in our everyday lives. we educated the athletes a lot. Every athlete had also their own protocol that was specifically designed for them. So based on all of the baseline analyses that we did, every person is different. But then also what is important is which event was the athlete doing. Are you a hundred meter sprinter or are you a weightlifter?

Depending on which event you do, you need very different skills to become your best. And therefore there's different substances that can help you excel at specifically that event. Or just think about a more abstract a hundred meter sprinter versus a marathon runner. Very different two skill sets, very different physiques, very different two things to optimize for to get the best out of the individual. And so every athlete had to

Richard Graves (17:40.312)
You know automatically, Max, sorry to interrupt there, that listening to that, many of our listeners will say, well, okay, you say it's medically supervised. What does that involve in practice and how do you distinguish between guaranteeing an athlete's safety and managing risk that comes with

Maximilian Martin (17:57.975)
Yeah, so that comes to life with the regular medical screenings that we did with the athletes. So that's been constant monitoring of blood values, constant monitoring of other etc. health markers of the athletes, but not just prior to the games, but over time. And so within that period of time, the athletes constantly being monitored, as said before, like there's a certain call it range that we look at to consider the athlete to be health and safe. Healthy and safe.

And if an athlete, for example, went outside that range, then obviously you can do adjustments to the protocol to get them back in there. We didn't have that, but we were very mindful of that. Also, another thing is we never gave an athlete an incredibly high dose from the outset. We also ultimately didn't, but we were always staggering it over time. So if you for example look at my protocol and what I'm taking to versus what the athletes are taking, compared to some of our athletes, I was taking eight times as much.

of the same substance that athletes were taking. For me, that's still not considered a high dose. But for our athletes, you need to think about it, like these are Olympians, we're record holders, s like two meter tall, two meter ten wingspan, genetically blessed, have dedicated their lifetime to the craft. For an athlete, you don't want to just put them on so much enhancements that they blow up like bodybuilders, but you're very mindful about how much you give them because it impacts every aspect of them doing the sport. So for example the swimmers,

You don't want the swimmers to be too lean because having a little bit of body fat helps them float. You don't want the swimmers to be too muscular because it impacts their range, it impacts their technique. They've even if a swimmer, for example, they have an optimal competition weight, if you go too much over that optimal competition weight, it completely the way the athletes tell it to me.

They feel very differently in the water. They don't catch it the same way. They need to get used to ha carrying more mass through the water. There's so much that comes to space with it. one of the doctors on our medical commission once said in an interview that for some of our athletes, we give them so little that you could consider it a homeopathic kind of dosage because it's really not been that much. So but

Maximilian Martin (20:09.752)
That's just kind of qualifying how much we've given them because for every athlete it was different as well. But we really monitor that safety range over time to make sure that the athletes stay healthy and safe to compete. But on the risk point, that is a really important one, and I want to stress that as well as I believe that every individual should be capable of, within what the law allows, take an assessment on which risk level they are willing to take. And say, for example, there's risks associated with everything in life. If I go to the store, to the liquor store, for example.

And I buy three bottles of Wodka, which is perfectly illegal, and I go to my apartment and drink them all within 15 minutes, I'm gonna die. Maybe I won't, but it's a risk that I can take for myself of the consequence of doing something that is allowed. And so, yes, there are potential side effects with many enhancements. but an athlete that is informed and consenting to it and willing to accept certain risks potentially in the long term from it, I believe.

as it is legal, should have the opportunity to do so.

Richard Graves (21:09.88)
And that's the key, isn't it? Because you use the example of three bottles of vodka. think most people would generally accept that is just it's a one way path to an inevitable conclusion. So it's one thing to say athletes can take enhanced substances if they're informed. It's another thing entirely, of course, to ensure that they are informed. And from your perspective as well, what are what are the most significant short and long term questions that

that remain when it comes to this sort of intervention because there are questions across the board about health and safety here that concern an awful lot of people.

Maximilian Martin (21:48.801)
Yeah. So one thing that I was just wanna say, like when we say like there are so many questions around the health and the safety of the athletes, all of our athletes were healthier after they got enhanced. They have improved their biomarkers. And, you know, the way that they their health is just in general, like they've become healthier, fitter, better. You know, like there's just one thing that I wanna note. It's not that we had any athlete that needed to go to the emergency room.

Because it was so unhealthy what they did. I think one of the biggest concerns for many of our athletes was fertility. Both men and women. That was one of the biggest concerns. We did a lot of education around that. Many of our athletes chose to freeze either their sperm or their eggs, just as a precautionary measure as well. But that I think was the biggest concern for most of the athletes was around fertility.

Richard Graves (22:37.72)
And in terms of the games themselves, you yourself admitted that you thought more world records would be broken. In competition, results perhaps didn't go the way many observers anticipated before the games started in purely sports science terms, in pharmaceutical terms. What lessons have been learned from these games that now need more research, that threw up questions that you weren't expecting, that perhaps gave you

Answers that were equally surprising

Maximilian Martin (23:08.694)
Yeah, good question as well. So I think one of the things is the initial enhancement period for the athletes was eight weeks. we enhanced our athletes. The program that we set up was actually a clinical study that we did together with the Department of Health in Abu Dhabi and the biggest hospital in the UAE. we had a war breakout at the time when the athletes were in a training camp down there. There were we don't need to get into it, a lot of complications that unfortunately shortened the interventional period to only eight weeks. We were initially planning to

Richard Graves (23:37.282)
Did that concern you?

Maximilian Martin (23:39.939)
A little bit, yes. Because we still like as I said before, eight weeks is just two months. There's not a you know, like a lot of build up that you can do over time. We still chose not to start with high doses with athletes immediately, but still like get them up there and monitor how every individual reacts to certain substances. Also, like if you give say hundred twenty five milligrams of testosterone to two men same age, same height, same body weight, they will react differently to it. And so like that was

Richard Graves (24:08.416)
Everybody's an individual and unique, aren't they?

Maximilian Martin (24:10.516)
Exactly. So we needed to stagger it over time. So it would have been much better if we had the initially proposed twenty weeks. it was eight weeks. So that's something that I think for the next game around is going to be much different. and then I think as well, you know, overall with the athletes, I I wanna be more focused on

you know, the overall achievement of personal bests than just world records. Because as I said before, breaking a world record is so much more than just taking drugs. You can give a top ten athletes all the drugs on the world, very unlikely that they're gonna break a world record. And so just breaking a world record is probably the most unique thing we have on the planet. It's one in eight billion people that has ever done this. So like it's it doesn't get rarer than that in terms of an achievement. There's you know, there's probably I don't know

40, 50 Formula One champions, there is forty less than fifty US presidents. Like that is a more a bigger group than a world record holder. So it's just very, very rare. But so that's why I want to be focused as well on on personal bests, because that's what I think is available to everyone. said this before, right? I'll never break a world record, but I can become the best version of myself and that's what I think is just as exciting.

Richard Graves (25:22.221)
If mainstream sport was to take anything out of the enhanced games we saw this past May, what would you hope it is?

Maximilian Martin (25:29.142)
I would hope that it is that it is more about the health supervision than it is restricting athletes from doing certain things. we see this as well in in other sports, you know, tennis for example, I think it was in 2024, both the winners of Wimbledon had both served doping bands before. If they Cinner, for example, when he reserved like did his ban, he didn't miss a single grand slam.

A female player got tested the same year for the same substance he did, received a four-year ban. It's just like, it is just very the traditional system is very much, you know, negotiable, call it like that, and therefore opens up a lot of unfairness to athletes. And I think one thing that we've seen as well with the athletes for us is the biggest advantage of enhancements is actually recovery and injury prevention.

Recovery allows them to train in shorter distances of time. So some of our athletes, for example, previously before they started getting enhanced, like six training sessions a week. Some of them were able to take it up to like 14 twice a day with no rest days. you get to a point where you need to be concerned, then you feel so good about yourself that you still don't over-train and force yourself to rest. But that is a huge impact. And then with a shorter distance between training periods,

the training p sessions also can be more intense and you can train harder because you're less prone for example for injuries, etc. and stuff like that and your bodies recover quicker, which makes the more effective training in a condensed period of time is actually what resulted in the biggest performance increases that we saw. And I think a lot of other sports could benefit from that as well, particularly on the recovery and injury prevention side. For example

Richard Graves (27:15.824)
And just before we, sorry Max, I was just going to say before we let you go, because I'm conscious that the clock is ticking, you already mentioned that there are things you're looking at and hope to learn from ahead of the next Enhanced Games that you stage. Five to ten years from now, what would have to happen for you to believe that the Enhanced Games themselves have been a success?

Maximilian Martin (27:38.927)
I think if people continue to watch the sport, the way that I actually think about enhancements and enhanced games, it's not a replacement to traditional sports. It's very different. It's a very different rule set.

many people like it, many people don't like it, and that's fine. in basketball, we've developed from traditional basketball to three-on-three basketball. We had volleyball and then we expanded to beach volleyball. I just think it's a very exciting sporting product, and we've shown that you know like more than a billion people like were engaged and exposed to the games from first-year sporting event, which is insane. and so I think if we are able to continue to host games, excite athletes to be a part of it, excite fans to watch it and and and experience it, come

to the games, I think that we've been very successful.

Richard Graves (28:24.128)
Is there a fear, with greater exposure? the competitors that take part under your controlled conditions have access to experts and a medical team and so forth. But you know what society generally is like. If you see role models or people that have been successful, then you're potentially exposing impressionable minds to a world that perhaps isn't as controlled, substances that they aren't as well informed about. That's potentially the concern here, isn't it?

Maximilian Martin (28:52.768)
No, it it absolutely is, and it comes back to the philosophical questions, are athletes idols? And this has been a question for decades. We have had elite athletes that were at the top of the world driving drunk and doing car crashes, beating up their partners. All of these things, right? Like these are important things to consider. What I think our athletes are doing an excellent job at is saying that these are only FDA proofed substances that are given to them under medical supervision.

That this is nothing for children. All of our athletes as well are saying that this is the next chapter of their career. They have appreciated what they did before. They're all against cheating. We actually require our athletes that are getting enhanced to retire from traditional sports before they take their first enhancements and sign with us. because we are so much against cheating. To the Ben Johnson point, yes, he should have gotten stripped for the medal. Of course, he was cheating.

And that's why we are developing a new sports property that we're very clear about. And education is is so so important. I think our athletes are doing an excellent job at it, and that's that we need to continue to do that. And and through that I hope that we can inspire people to think about what enhancements can do for them. I think we've seen over the last three, four years the unbelievable impact GLP once had on society and how life changing that medication was for millions of people.

And I hope that people now consider what else can I do for optimising my health.

Many of the treatments also I mean we offer them as well, many of the treatments that we have just not everyone needs to be an elite athlete. You know, we have many customers of ours that are for example in their forties that are taking enhancements from us because after a full day of work they want to come home and be present with their kids for an hour or two before they go to bed. And they feel otherwise drained, unmotivated, unclear. And enhancements help them to be better parents. and so like the application space of enhancements is so wide, it's different for every single one of them.

Maximilian Martin (30:51.714)
And so I hope that through we can continue to inspire people and make enhancements accessible to them to have a positive impact on the quality of the life that they have.

Richard Graves (31:01.196)
Well, listen, Max, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. I promise you. It's been a thought-provoking conversation that will promote debate amongst our listeners, to say the least. But I thank you once again for your time. And no doubt this will possibly be an issue and subject that we revisit in the future.

Maximilian Martin (31:20.13)
Yeah, thank you so much Richard for having me. One point on a on a thought provoking lesson what I always invite everyone to do is, you know, like if you don't agree with enhancements, you also just cannot take them. If you you know, like but if you are a person that would love to consider it, then why not do it? And so there's like there's always something like on a on a kind of freedom of choice. We're just giving people the choice. Yeah.

Richard Graves (31:40.888)
And on that note, people of either persuasion, where can they stare abreast of what Anaheimster are doing and what's going on on social media?

Maximilian Martin (31:49.74)
Yeah, the best way is on on social media. Enhanced underscore games is our main handle on Instagram. but then also we're very active on Twitter. I post a lot on Twitter as well. I write articles every now and then about what we're doing, what we're focused on. I think that's the best way to stay up to date on anything that's happening around enhanced.

Richard Graves (32:08.032)
Max, get there in the end, Max Martin. It's been a pleasure speaking to you.

Maximilian Martin (32:13.241)
Thank you so much, Richard.