00:00:01:22 - 00:00:19:26
Unknown
Welcome to the Science Sport Podcast, where we dive into stories and insights that drove peak
performance. Join us as we uncover the secrets behind the science of success. Here's your host,
Richard Grace.
00:00:19:28 - 00:00:47:02
Unknown
Hello and welcome to the science for sport podcast with me, Richard Grace. This week we return to
our Science Sports studio as we move the focus on the evolution of sport science and its impact on
professional football. My guest has operated as a pro football player and manager in a career that
now spans across five different decades. As a player, he worked under renowned and respected
managers such as Martin O'Neill and Howard Wilkinson.
00:00:47:04 - 00:01:13:00
Unknown
He won the League Cup with Leicester City and the Football League Trophy with Blackpool. As a
manager, he counts promotion winning campaigns with Leeds United, Huddersfield Town and
Preston North End. Among his accolades, his works both in the UK and overseas and has gathered a
wealth of experience in this area. So let's hear now from Simon Grayson unlocking sports science to
push the limits of human potential.
00:01:13:03 - 00:01:19:00
Unknown
This is the Science to Sport podcast.
00:01:19:03 - 00:01:38:12
Unknown
Well, Simon, welcome to the Science of Sport podcast. It's great to have you on. It seems scarcely
believable, I guess, certainly for you that your career now spans across five decades. Don't want me
to age you, but dating all the way back to the 1980s? For those of our listeners and viewers across
our YouTube channel that aren't familiar with you and your career.
00:01:38:14 - 00:02:00:29
Unknown
Give us a brief history and the journey along the way. Yeah, when you say five decades, it's really
frightening. But it is only seems like yesterday, though. So I joined Leeds United. I signed as a 14
year old. That was the list you could sign. Not like this modern day of football. And then six teams got
the good news that I was going to be an apprentice scholar.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 2
00:02:01:01 - 00:02:24:07
Unknown
Signed on the same day as a Gary Speed. So we sort of a long friendship. We went on to have a
fantastic Premier League career and then fortunately, being an elite supporter, I made my debut
when I was 17 and, just couldn't quite break through. I was part of a group with Gary McAllister's
Gordon Strachan that won the old club to win the, the top division before it became the Premier
League.
00:02:24:07 - 00:02:47:23
Unknown
So I'll gather the wealth of experience by being alongside these players. But needed to start my
career and then went to Leicester, where I had six, nearly six years of unbelievable, success in a way
that from 11 games of joining them, I was playing in the championship play off final. So from Leeds
reserves to Wembley, 75,000, whatever it was, was amazing.
00:02:47:23 - 00:03:04:08
Unknown
And in that period of time we had the sort of we lost. Unfortunately we lost that first playoff final. We
lost the next year in the play off final. The third year we beat Derby in a playoff final, and I was
fortunate to be the captain. The first Premier League, Leicester captain to win at Wembley next year.
00:03:04:08 - 00:03:22:23
Unknown
We got relegated the next year. We got promoted via the play offs again at Wembley, beating Crystal
Palace and then the next year we won the League Cup, as you mentioned. So we had like five visits
to Wembley in such a short period of time, as well as a relegation so far. Yes. Yeah. Four visits in the
league and the in the playoff and a League Cup.
00:03:22:23 - 00:03:40:05
Unknown
So and then sort of got moved to Aston Villa off the back of that for for two years. Went up to
Blackburn for a couple of years, three years. Few loan deals. Did the reserves at Blackpool as well. I
was playing and then fell into management really. So that was sort of 20 years of playing in, in a few
minutes.
00:03:40:12 - 00:04:06:16
Unknown
Before we get into coaching in your managerial career, let's focus it a little bit on the playing side of
things, because the athletes are today. The modern footballer is well versed in nutrition, dietary
requirements, technology being used, their GPS vests, amongst other things. They'll know all about
sleep and how important that is to to be an effective come match day for you in the 1980s.
00:04:06:18 - 00:04:28:03
Unknown
Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of this existed. It was a different world, wasn't it? It completely was.
And I when we were apprentices at Elland Road, because that's where the training ground was
based, Fullerton Park. And you would have, going to the first team dressing room and the first port of
call on a morning, every morning was, what do you want from the cafe across the road, Sheila's
Cafe?
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 3
00:04:28:03 - 00:04:50:03
Unknown
It was. And it was basically sausage and egg, bacon and egg sandwich. And if you were lucky, as an
apprentice, the proles actually bought one for you as well. And they're eating these bacon
sandwiches, etc., for breakfast at, 10:00 and then going out into the training pitch at at 10:30, literally
20 minutes later, to have to finish it with a cup of tea, and then going out training.
00:04:50:03 - 00:05:14:12
Unknown
So that was the star of it all and the sort of work that had happened in this modern day. And now after
match as well, was basically on the bus and there might be a bar of chocolate that might be KitKat
smiles, bars might be fish and chips, potentially. And there was certainly, a box full of beers for the
players to have as well, and players lounges where every player would go in after the game.
00:05:14:12 - 00:05:33:01
Unknown
So the sort of recovery stages were a lot, lot different, shall we say. It'll sound very foreign to the
football of today, no doubt. And there's probably a number of coaches listening to this that are
nodding in agreement that will recall it, and others that perhaps weren't surrounded that area. Error,
error. Out of that, I'll be like, wow, really?
00:05:33:06 - 00:05:58:25
Unknown
Did this happen? Trust me, it definitely did happen. But we've spoken about it on this podcast before.
Arsene Wenger, the great Arsenal manager, is widely credited, along with Sam Allardyce in being the
innovators in the back end of the 90s into the early noughties. You were still playing in that era. Did
you notice a discernible change in that time, or did it take a bit longer to filter through?
00:05:58:27 - 00:06:25:09
Unknown
I think when I look back on my career, the one thing that I looked at was that every team through the
generations are more or less doing the same thing. So it wasn't just Leeds United when I was 18, 20
that were doing them things. Gordon Strachan was probably the biggest inspiration in terms of at
Leeds United that he came in I as an 89, maybe, and all of a sudden he's the player is guiding the
players.
00:06:25:09 - 00:06:46:15
Unknown
He was never going to sort of convince them totally, but he guided them and said, look, eat bananas,
have seaweed tablets. He would have a psychologist come in and do a few sessions with the
players. So that was that was a very late 80s. So that was a change. But then I go to Leicester and
there wasn't much difference really, because everybody was doing the same thing.
00:06:46:15 - 00:07:10:09
Unknown
So you look back at them and Manchester United, the golden era of Giggs and people like Bryan
Robson and all them, they were still going out drinking and and training hard because that's what we
did. We all trained hard, but we probably played and won out a lot more than the modern day players.
I think the first sort of time I saw it really changing when I was involved was when I went to Aston Villa
in about.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 4
00:07:10:16 - 00:07:34:09
Unknown
Well, it was signed in 97 and basically Brian Little and then John Gregory. So the mantle was were
bringing people in pre-season to, to do our testing for us. We've taken our blood samples. We were
on the tread machines and I've been to heart rate monitors sort of tested in that round. So I think the,
the very late 90s when I first sampled it.
00:07:34:11 - 00:07:51:09
Unknown
But when you talk about Venga and Sam as well, because he deserves a lot of credit to Sam
Allardyce, because people talk about Arsene Wenger coming in from Japan and changing it around.
Well, Sam was ahead of his game and and he's not seen as fashionable as he was at Bolton at the
time, which wasn't as fashionable club as it is Arsenal.
00:07:51:09 - 00:08:07:06
Unknown
And he didn't of the name because he'd done the lower leagues in England and but he was so
knowledgeable of all of these things and he had stuff below him that worked and recruited really well
in that department. So that I think that was the turn turnaround when it really started to have room to
move on to different levels.
00:08:07:06 - 00:08:26:15
Unknown
And then so the back end of Villa and they've got to Blackburn the whole medical department, the
SNC departments got was getting bigger and bigger. I remember signing for Blackburn and I think
what you call the machine, what you do in the Lord of thought, words on your legs and stuff like that.
Biomechanics. I think it was.
00:08:26:18 - 00:08:44:07
Unknown
It's probably one that had these sessions. I've done it about two years, to be fair, prior to going there,
but it was all moving on to be testing your muscles, your heart, your blood cells and things like that.
Okay, let's bring you up to speed then. A modern day football across the 20 years or so, you've been
a coach and manager.
00:08:44:07 - 00:09:07:24
Unknown
Now, how has coaching evolved in that time? And if you can give us some examples. And what about
coaching today? And management starts today would surprise a younger Simon Grayson if you went
back 2025 years. I think in terms of behind the scenes and preparation players now, probably right
the way through the leagues, and I'm not just saying Premier League.
00:09:07:24 - 00:09:28:25
Unknown
I'm think it's have been it's a knock on effect to to all the divisions right. The way to the National
League and be law. But to be fair, full time work where players are getting in a lot earlier the having
breakfast put on by them for the football clubs. And even if players don't have the opportunity to have
breakfast at a football club, they'll be, having healthy breakfast.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 5
00:09:28:27 - 00:09:56:12
Unknown
So you smoked salmon, maybe scrambled eggs or protein shakes? Get in. You do in your break.
Excuse me? You doing your rehab before you went out onto the training pitches? And you give them
programs which are suitable for each individual, and then the next phase is where, the sports
sciences department, they take all the for 20 minutes or so, all to get the players fine tuned and
warm, ready for the technical and tactical sessions.
00:09:56:12 - 00:10:27:29
Unknown
So that's sort of been a big part of it. Like I said, up and down the legs, it's just the top end. And along
the way, what my philosophy with it all is to, to adjust my sessions. But let that department run itself
because they're far more qualified than I am. I've got a a wealth of experience, and I think I know
what I would like to do, but I've always said to each department, medical, nutritional agency, coaches,
you all specialize in these departments.
00:10:27:29 - 00:10:48:29
Unknown
You go and do it to the best of you can ask questions and advise. And if I don't think you're up to the
level of it, I'll go and get somebody that is, I'm not going to tell you what to do, because again, I'll
keep saying it. I'm not I'm not specialized. So it's interesting you should say that we had a doctor,
Trevor Short, on the science of sport podcast from Utah State only a few weeks ago.
00:10:49:04 - 00:11:08:20
Unknown
And we're talking about having because there's a wealth of different departments now, isn't there
when it comes to sports science bit SNC bit nutrition bit psychology, whatever it might be. And his big
thing was don't let all these different departments operate in silos, because the betterment of the
team demands that you all sing, sing from the same hymn sheet.
00:11:08:20 - 00:11:31:27
Unknown
And it strikes me from what you're saying there. Whilst you're willing to give these departments
autonomy, it's important that you pull the strings together. Yeah, 100%. And I think canning business.
But we're talking about football here now is that as a manager, I want to get the best out of every
individual that I'm working with. So that's predominantly the players because I want them to perform
to the highest level that they can do, because that's going to give me a better chance of getting
results.
00:11:31:27 - 00:12:07:23
Unknown
And ultimately, results are determined to keep your job short term or long term. But ultimately then,
people in them departments, work closely together. So nutritionists, masseurs, they all sort of mingle
in together. They can all work off each other's positive or negative interactions, but we all want the
best thing to be. All I will say to each individuals and medical departments, to be fair, more so is try
and give me every player as fit as possible for as long as possible because again, that helps my job.
00:12:07:23 - 00:12:30:06
Unknown
And and that's however they want to do that. And don't get me wrong, there's going to be certain
things that I will disagree on that I'm thinking, I don't want to do that because I don't want I've never
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 6
wanted the team's training sessions to be completely dictated by sport science or mod, vest and
things like that, because my eyes will tell me certain things, but it is a huge, huge part.
00:12:30:06 - 00:12:50:25
Unknown
And it and I've taught and respect all up for the for the people who work in it. And again, this is why
it's great that we have you on this week's podcast with us, because we so often speak to experts in
their particular field. But the one question that I often ask is, how do you convert that data into a
format that a coach or manager can relate to and is meaningful to what he's trying to achieve?
00:12:51:01 - 00:13:15:12
Unknown
So you're a current coach manager, still work in the industry. What is it you want from all these
different experts and departments that can give you the best information that can make a difference
to what you're trying to? Yeah, look, I think I touched on it. Whatever data we get in, it gives me the
opportunity to have as many players available for training every day or selection on a match to a
situation.
00:13:15:12 - 00:13:53:19
Unknown
I'm not very simplistic, but that's all I really need at times, cos we need to make sure that from the
data you know that the players are not working too long, the not working too intense on on the
reverse and not working. Let's I was not getting the intensity out sessions, and every session that I try
and put on has to be governed by them a little bit, that we have to be ready for that match their
situation because of a training session, because if they're not physically prepared properly, the
likelihood is they're going to break down because of the intensity that I like to train up with my players
as well.
00:13:53:19 - 00:14:11:29
Unknown
So do you ever feel that you get given too much information? Too much data? Look, I think that is
something that you can say is around, but again, it goes back to each department. They're specialize
in it and they want to give themselves the best opportunity. They don't have to bring me every bit of
information they've got.
00:14:11:29 - 00:14:32:27
Unknown
It has to be information that is relevant to me. But they can they have to have this information
because one day I might ask them something can if they haven't got it, then, then they're going to
look foolish to be fair. So I'm all for them having as much data as they want. And sessions
recommended for us to do to get that information and plan our sessions over a week, six weeks.
00:14:32:27 - 00:15:07:09
Unknown
Perry. Periodization. So yeah, information is key, but it's how you utilize it and how you want to utilize
it. With that in mind, then to what extent has the advancement in technology evolution and the
various metrics available to us now? To what extent has that impacted the way you operate as a
coach and manager in football? I think there's been good and bad elements to it, to be fair, because I
know that certain coaches will be completely dictated by by us and see you in the medical
departments through all the data.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 7
00:15:07:11 - 00:15:24:10
Unknown
Where there's a coach, your eyes and your experience will tell you, I need to do something else. I
need to work. I need the intensity going up. We want to go. I would need to do a little bit longer
because I've not finished what the key point of a tactical element of the work towards a match this
situation.
00:15:24:10 - 00:15:46:06
Unknown
Because regardless of any day of the week, the most important one is a match there, because that's
where all our livelihoods are dictated by. So yeah, I've, I've sort of, I've been very, thoughtful of the
information I get from people, but I still decide of, of the last say on things of what we're going to do.
00:15:46:06 - 00:16:08:15
Unknown
And, I think is it's important to do that because ultimately, you all the other coach, you're the manager
because the buck stops with you and nobody above you in terms of honors, really, all crowds would
be too bothered about sort of what they're to they're saying they just want to see the results on a, on
a Saturday, Tuesday night or whatever.
00:16:08:18 - 00:16:41:21
Unknown
But all these things behind the scenes certainly had to have in, successful periods. Yeah. And you've
said there, despite all the different sports scientists, specialties, experts in their field being available,
giving you data, sometimes it's what you see with your own eyes that means a little bit more to you.
With that in mind, then, as a caveat, with everything that a pro football now has and a professional
manager as well is the one piece of technology, well, one metric that you will fall back on and rely on
if you like.
00:16:41:25 - 00:17:00:29
Unknown
If you're unsure. The reason I ask that is because back in the day when no doubt you started playing,
you'd come in for pre-season and I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Pre-season starts with the
Bleep test. Yeah, well where's that? Might have meant a lot at one time. It's now almost prehistoric
when we're talking about this space.
00:17:00:29 - 00:17:22:15
Unknown
Yeah, I think it's sort of the high speed runs of the real sort of dear to the I would use because in this
modern day football now, players are probably sprinting a lot more than ever before, one, because
the more physical and they're able to do it, but also they are probably quite a little bit more vulnerable
because of the high speed runs.
00:17:22:15 - 00:17:51:04
Unknown
If you're doing a repetitive, throughout a match, then the muscles are prone to probably being,
exposed to, to injury more. So I think having that data of and covering the meters per second, is I
think that's the biggest one for me, really. I think the heart rates can be all monitored and the blood
cells can be monitored quite easily, but I think it's that sort of element that is a key to it, because that
is a big biggest for me.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 8
00:17:51:04 - 00:18:13:16
Unknown
I think the biggest thing in football has changed over the years is intensity. That plays a role in that
now. And is that explosive? Is it operating in a small space? Is it distance covered? Is it relying on,
the medical team in terms of rehab and recovery? Yeah, I think I think all of them elements, I think I
think the sprint in small distances is a big key because of the chopping and changing direction.
00:18:13:16 - 00:18:42:14
Unknown
Now that you have to do it more frequently, as I said, but you still have to be aware of the distance
covered. So people will talk about a game on a Saturday. And if a player has gone into too much of
the red zone, is he going to be able to replicate the same level of performance? Explain to us what
you mean when you say too much of the red zone, or basically going into areas of the putting the
body into the high intensity runs, more frequently than probably the body has been used to over a
period of time.
00:18:42:17 - 00:19:05:08
Unknown
And then you talk about using that data, is it going to be a negative on the player, on his recovery?
And especially if you're playing 2 or 3 days later, can he go again and give you the same sort of
output with the intensity which will affect his tactical and technical ability as well? So you are
governed by in that department of your team selection?
00:19:05:11 - 00:19:22:04
Unknown
I think managers and coaches also tell you that they want the best players out there, so we try and
turn them over as quickly as we can. But you have to be aware of the situation because for the sake
of a player not starting the next game, you could save him from being out for 4 to 6 weeks with a
hamstring injury.
00:19:22:04 - 00:19:43:19
Unknown
So that's interesting. How how do you handle that scenario then? Because certainly below the
Premier League in a football league its comments have games Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday,
Tuesday they come thick and fast. If you've played on a Saturday and one of your key players has
covered a lot of ground in intense physical game, the metrics show you that he's had an elevated
heart rate.
00:19:43:19 - 00:20:07:08
Unknown
He's been in that red zone for an extended period of time, longer than perhaps most of your sports
science team would recommend. Presumably that's the point when you think, okay, because of that
strain and stress and the cardiovascular, exercise that you had to endure for that period, he's now
more prone to potentially picking up an injury.
00:20:07:10 - 00:20:25:14
Unknown
At what point do you say the risk is worth it? Get him on the field as opposed to let's look at the
bigger picture, because a season last eight and a half months will just hold him back. Look, I think it
all depends where you are in the season. And and our results have been going. And have you got a
big enough squad to carry it.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 9
00:20:25:14 - 00:20:42:25
Unknown
So if you're if you've got a small squad, the likelihood is you'll go with your best players a little bit
more often than maybe you'd like to do. If you've just lost 2 or 3, fall on the trot, then you may be
thinking, I can't wait. I need to get my best players out, back out on the pitch again, because we need
to stop this rot.
00:20:42:25 - 00:21:05:02
Unknown
Because if it carries on, I could be out of a job. So there's some negative elements to it. You could
ask the player how he was feeling, but more times than not, a player will always tell you he's fit. He
doesn't like the word being rested. He doesn't like the word being that it's a squad game where you
can drop in and out of it, they just want to play.
00:21:05:02 - 00:21:39:10
Unknown
And I get that and there'd be something wrong with the player if he wasn't wanting to play it week in
and week out. So I think all these elements, play a part in your decision making. If everything was
brilliant, then you would. You've got the luxury of, can leave you out and we can utilize the squad and
bring things in, but all the other elements I mentioned certainly played a big, big part in your decision
making and fortunately, has a decision of that nature ever resulted in, shall we say, a heated
exchange between you and your sports science team?
00:21:39:12 - 00:22:01:04
Unknown
No, I wouldn't say so, because one, my personality is a manager, isn't looking for any confrontation.
We love it. We might have a difference of opinion on stuff, but the buck stops with me. You know
what I mean? I know I'm not being disrespectful to people who are the head of departments, you
know? But in in the line of football now, it's like owners manager.
00:22:01:06 - 00:22:19:11
Unknown
There's always been that case, to be fair. And then obviously under the umbrella under the manager
culture, all the all the head of department. So there isn't too many times you lose on a Saturday that
and there might be something really harsh that people in the medical department, nutritionists they're
getting sacked off is losing three nil. It's always the manager.
00:22:19:11 - 00:22:42:22
Unknown
So I always make that decision what the final say. But I'm not big enough to say, I totally agree with
you. I don't agree with you. And even when I'm convinced that sometimes I'm not doing the right thing
for myself, I will be swayed a little bit because it is a nature of work, isn't it? And I am guided at times,
but not all the time.
00:22:42:22 - 00:23:06:11
Unknown
So maybe not all the time. And it's easy for us to just focus on football here in the UK, because that's
where the majority of your career has taken place on and off the field. But you've also worked
overseas in Asia with success, incidentally, as well. How do these philosophies, these practices
change? Because obviously you're dealing with different cultures, no disrespect intended, but a
different standard of football as well.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 10
00:23:06:11 - 00:23:30:14
Unknown
Do you have to adapt in these scenarios? Yeah, it was when I went to India, I was going with this sort
of sim mentality approach that I had in England, in terms of the system of player, my pressing high
intensity work, the sessions we were, what we were going to do, and then. But the first couple of
sessions I did all on a whiteboard and you were talking really slow.
00:23:30:21 - 00:24:00:23
Unknown
Then after about two days, I've like completely just gone into full Yorkshire twang and the, the, the so
nice the lads that are out there that I would say you all understand what I've said and they all
ultimately go, yes. And I went, you don't understand. So I Terry I to just most time again but also the
taking into consideration like the the climate, the humidity humidity out there was that after a couple
of the first morning we did something high intensity.
00:24:00:23 - 00:24:22:20
Unknown
And I thought these players really to not put it in all the not actually, fit enough to do what I'm wanting
to do, and then I run for a ball or something about 20, 30 yards ago and I'm covered in sweat and I'm
going, no wonder you have to stand. Now. I understand, because of the, and the conditions that they
were working inside to adjust all my work around it.
00:24:22:23 - 00:24:46:04
Unknown
And again, in India, the level of SNC coaches probably work to the level of here, but it was an
education that from me to them that I was trying to educate them of, given my experiences what I can
adjust things. I maybe thought that they could do things a little bit simpler, but that wasn't going to
work in terms of how I was wanting to play.
00:24:46:04 - 00:25:15:13
Unknown
So I had to be compromises all round to get the best results for us. And, and that was that was the
reason why I went out away from the UK just to be out of my comfort zone and be adaptable as a
coach in every department, but also be an educational opportunity for others to learn from me, from
my experience in the game of 40 odd years, how much easier is it in the modern day and age to
create individualized training sessions for for each player?
00:25:15:16 - 00:25:42:29
Unknown
Because you have the technology now, the data, the analytics, and assume from the scenario you're
describing there in India, it was probably more prevalent in that instance. Yeah. I think what you've
got now is you as as a manager and coaching staff, we normally used to be yourself and an assistant
manager. And if you were lucky, you might have a first team coach, you might have one SNC coach,
you might have one, maybe two physios.
00:25:43:01 - 00:26:04:13
Unknown
Football has moved on now and you and you just see the number of people that are on the in the
dugouts now, the top level and a lot of other stuff sat in the stands as well. It's like a two busses go
together games now so you can have more one on one individual planning and work with people,
whether it's on the pitch with tactical stuff, technical stuff or in the gym.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 11
00:26:04:15 - 00:26:35:28
Unknown
The attention to detail is far more now, there for players to to do this work because of the numbers
that are working behind the scenes as well. And I think compared to back when we were playing in
the 90s, that it was we worked hard, but then we went home, we finished at 1:00 and we'd gone do
whatever we did, play golf and go to the pub sometimes, but modern day players now we're in a
hyper state probably most mornings and then don't probably leave too many a lifestyle past 2 or 3:00
now.
00:26:35:28 - 00:27:02:05
Unknown
Yeah, and you talk about, playing on a Saturday, then most teams now, especially in the Premier
League, are certainly in on a recovery session on the, on the Sunday. You might play Tuesday.
Wendy's Wednesday. So you there again. You're in sometimes nearly every day for for a couple of
weeks. If you haven't got a game then the more times and not the team are off on on Mondays.
00:27:02:05 - 00:27:24:04
Unknown
And then you have A34 daily where really everybody's different. We have I like a two day lead, some
like three that leads into it. Some Premier League managers, a four day leads. And it's all very
difficult to sort of, plan because of the number of games that are involved. And, but I think the modern
day players got used to it now and, and the money on their run.
00:27:24:04 - 00:27:47:08
Unknown
And you can keep it a lot longer. You absolutely can. And I'm interested as well, because you
mentioned most, if not all, pro footballers are in for a recovery session the morning after the game.
Now, give us an idea of what a recovery session looks like in the modern game. Yeah. So so
probably after a game on the on the Saturday night, the lads who've maybe not played will go and do
a little bit of a running session.
00:27:47:08 - 00:28:05:07
Unknown
If you're in the next day for definite, you'll, you probably keep that intensity down. It's just to keep sort
of the miss the best. The session the the lads have work for 90 minutes. So you do a bit there. Then
obviously Sunday morning the lads who have been who've played the majority of the game will go
into the gym.
00:28:05:12 - 00:28:22:13
Unknown
Sometimes you'll go outside, you'll have a little jog round, you might just get the ball out, another
Rondo, a box, and then go back in and do some stretching exercises or depending on the weather.
To be fair, if it's raining or whatever, the players will go on the bikes in the gym and use the
equipment there they'll go.
00:28:22:16 - 00:29:04:16
Unknown
They've got the swimming pools, they've got the cryotherapy machine. Chambers, hydro pools.
There's so much available now for players to, to give themselves the best opportunity. But clubs can
do all of this for them that we've mentioned. But they have to want to do it themselves. So some
players will have sort of machines at home where straight after the game, the putting on sort of the, I
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 12
think what they call now, they we've got lots of air in for the recovery of the legs in the most of
pressure, though, you had the pressure suits and not and then you have the Len instead of like
again, go back to
00:29:04:17 - 00:29:25:05
Unknown
90s going out for meals and eating whatever we did and drink whatever we did, the probably didn't
drink it. Loads of protein, shakes of water, eating the right foods for their recovery sessions. And that
is the biggest part. Ready to give themselves that best opportunity. So sleeping is a huge part. I think
modern day players like sleeping.
00:29:25:05 - 00:29:38:18
Unknown
Anyway, I certainly you go even as manager, I like to have an afternoon sleep when we were playing
on a Tuesday night, which. So it's quite weird given that you were never going to be really round, but
it kept me fresh and just give you a little sort of a bit of a chance to sort of chill out.
00:29:38:18 - 00:29:56:29
Unknown
But but again, that's something that a sports scientist would recommend in terms of preparing your
body for the exertions of a 90 minute game. It could be hundred and 20 minutes, of course, if it's in
knockout form. Yeah, because we all have to be mentally and physical. Physically be ready for your
line of work. You have to be sharp.
00:29:56:29 - 00:30:34:22
Unknown
You have to be switched in. Last thing you need to be is like yawning on the touchline and not having
the focus. All the awareness of that. You've missed something can that can be the difference
between winning and losing a game. Now the small margins are incredible. So everybody that is in
around the US to prepare properly for games, and I remember when I was in Indonesia just recently
with the national team of the head coach, it was English like, to be fair, was quite adamant that we'd
work all morning in meetings and preparation to train at seven 8:00 at night, but then mid afternoon
he says, right, you have to go on of
00:30:34:24 - 00:30:52:28
Unknown
downtime in your room for an hour, try and get 20 or 30 minutes late, because then we go in again
with the intensity, the sharpness, the awareness that we're ready to go. And we don't need people
that are tired. So use your time. Valuably I think that's a key thing as well that use your time value.
Believe what you're going to do.
00:30:53:02 - 00:31:10:14
Unknown
Some people can do things for the sake of it and the thinking they have to be seen doing things when
sometimes you don't have to be doing things. Doing nothing sometimes can be more beneficial than
actually trying to prove to people that you're you're in for 12 hours a day when you don't really need
to be at times.
00:31:10:14 - 00:31:37:11
Unknown
Yeah, it's quality over quantity. Definitely. I wonder, given your experience, that the different training
methods that you've operated in, the different managers you've worked under, the different
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 13
philosophies? I imagine that with the evolution of sports science and the technology now available,
that comes times when you might doubt the data that's put there in front of you. What happens in
those scenarios when your instinct questions the data?
00:31:37:14 - 00:31:58:19
Unknown
Yeah, it's more times than not when you've had the experience. I've had another coaches say the
same. Maybe the younger coaches now will will have ideas of, how games have gone, how decision,
how training has gone that you're not too far wrong on how you think the sessions has been. I think
sometimes we touched on it earlier.
00:31:58:25 - 00:32:24:02
Unknown
How will you use them numbers within the game situation. So somebody in a department might say
to me all the time, the player only covered nine and a half cat and another player another way is
doing 11 off. Can you think, well, he's not worked hard enough, but you've got to then think about
how the game's been. If you've dominated possession of the ball, you're going to not be running
around as much.
00:32:24:02 - 00:32:46:05
Unknown
Whereas if you're counter-attacking and you're giving over, turn in possession, you're going to be
going backwards and forwards, and that's when you're covering distance. You're given a chance and
by a better team in you, you get your high speed runs, get you trying to get close to somebody.
You're doing this, you're doing that. And it's it's how you interpret the game that has been the context
of it all that is the biggest factor in it all.
00:32:46:05 - 00:33:12:08
Unknown
And and that's why you can't be dominated by solely data. You've got to analyze the game situation
as well. And and again, don't get me wrong, the be the will be a game where you've gone. He hasn't
worked hard enough, but I can I will know more times than not. I will see that with my own eyes and
more times, and not want to see somebody not working out is sat next to me on the bench anyway
because I've taken him off.
00:33:12:10 - 00:33:34:21
Unknown
So a good managerial decision, no doubt. And then I'll turn to this and see coaching. God told you it
wasn't working out and that's why they're next to me now. I wonder if we we throw forward and
projects, given what we know with sports science now, and everything, the wealth of information that
it presents us with, how do you see it moving forward with football?
00:33:34:21 - 00:33:53:16
Unknown
How will it develop? What can it give us that it doesn't already do? And, you know, we haven't even
touched on artificial intelligence, which is increasingly coming into play as well. Yeah. Look, you
never know what the future is going to bring and who's going to invent something, say something,
discover something. We go back to the late 90s.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 14
00:33:53:19 - 00:34:12:16
Unknown
Nobody really thought that Sam Allardyce and Arthur Venga were going to be able to do what they
did. But now football has got to a level where there's so much available for the players as we've
talked about, but somewhere down the line somebody is going to find something that is going to say,
right, we move on from that now.
00:34:12:20 - 00:34:39:12
Unknown
We found something new. I, as you mentioned, is going to play a big part in that. So it will keep
developing. It will change. But football is it's not a complicated business. It's made complicated by
coaches at times, but it does sometimes do a full circle as well of going. But I'm not saying we're
going to go back to bake sandwiches on a on a Tuesday, Monday morning from the cafe across the
road, because I don't think we'll ever have to go to that level again.
00:34:39:12 - 00:35:01:11
Unknown
But there might be certain things that we did in the 80s, 90s that maybe people go, well, you know,
something that actually worked really well, and we can take bits of that again into the new modern
era as well, of, of things being discovered. Okay. And on that and say it has a habit of coming full
circle, what do you feel will remain timeless about coaching?
00:35:01:11 - 00:35:24:21
Unknown
What what are the traits that a manager needs, that no amount of tech is ever going to be able to
take away from, man management skills, get the best out of the people you're working with. You
know, I mean, I, I've mentioned previously that you you can have the best players in world, in your
team, in your group, in your squad.
00:35:24:24 - 00:35:52:20
Unknown
But if they're not performing or wanting to perform, it makes it very, very more difficult to get results.
And that is not just talking about the players. That is every department from people in the canteen
that are preparing the food to the cleaners, to the kitman, women, to everybody connected with that
club, because you have to respect them because they're there for a reason, doing their jobs and the
no less significant than somebody else in a higher department.
00:35:52:20 - 00:36:18:02
Unknown
I think like that. So I've always said this, that getting the best out of players in any line of work, in any
business, you've got people onside. It's going to give you a far better opportunity, but also having that
togetherness as well, that if somebody is struggling in their department, then might need help or God
help them. If the kitman has.
00:36:18:04 - 00:36:35:04
Unknown
Well, I was going to send Eddie six kisses on the van, probably about 12 now that the need in the
dressing rooms. Well, can you help him? Can you go move him in? Because they'll do something for
you that you might need up time. So I think it's I think what I'm talking about is never really changed
much over the years.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 15
00:36:35:04 - 00:36:54:00
Unknown
And it's so important that it doesn't change because no individual is bigger than any football club. But
as a collective, you've got a better chance of succeeding. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a good point. It
to end on. Listen, Simon, it's been fantastic to have your company for this episode of the Science of
Sport podcast. You mentioned that recent you've been over to Indonesia.
00:36:54:00 - 00:37:14:29
Unknown
What's next for Simon Grayson? Well, I'm hoping Indonesia might sort of, happen again. I will get into
over in the March-April window, FIFA window, we played, Bulgaria and, Saint Kitts and, as things
happen behind the scenes, sort of decision making doesn't quite allow it. I was only going to I only go
in for the camps anyway.
00:37:14:29 - 00:37:32:14
Unknown
I was going to do, because John Herdman, the head coach, has got a couple of full time staff in terms
of assistant coaches, and I don't want to live away from home any more. But, it's just been a few
issues that allowed me to to happen, but I'm hopeful that maybe in the next few windows it happens.
00:37:32:16 - 00:37:52:06
Unknown
They've got the equivalent of the euros in to in January, which is in Saudi Arabia. So it'd be nice to be
part of that because international football now is something that I really enjoyed doing with him, and I
really like the opportunity of doing something, whether it's in Indonesia or somewhere, or being a
head coach at one of the smaller nations where you're doing something completely different.
00:37:52:06 - 00:38:13:19
Unknown
I think I've got to a stage now where I like different opportunities and different challenges, hence why
I went to India and Nepal for eight weeks because different cultures out your comfort zone at one 800
games now as a head coach. And it's a look back and I loved every minute of it. But I'm now at a
point where I want to see different parts of the world, and I want to challenge myself in different ways.
00:38:13:19 - 00:38:36:18
Unknown
So yeah, who knows what's around there. I'm doing a bit of advisory work for Cork City in Ireland as
a, to the board and to the or to the manager and the owners and the director of football. So that's
been good as well. And then I'm just setting up my own academy in Leeds as well, trying to put
something back into to grassroots football where we can all sort of have, a couple of nights a week at
a center in Leeds and, do that really.
00:38:36:18 - 00:38:55:11
Unknown
So still full on as ever. I just got to say plenty to keep. You woke. Yeah, yeah, I'm probably working
more hours now than when I'm a manager, you know what I mean? I can delegate a little bit more
when I'm a manager. We all know stuff that I've. Well, absolutely. And we all know that the best way
of staying across, what everyone's doing is social media.
EP. 338 · SFS · SIMON GRAYSON
Page 16
00:38:55:11 - 00:39:11:29
Unknown
So for our viewers and our listeners, where can they find you on social media? Yes, I do, I don't do a
lot of, stuff, but it's Instagram. Simon Grace official is sort of my general one, but then it's going to be
Simon Grayson Football Academy, which is going to be launched, probably back end of September.
00:39:11:29 - 00:39:30:21
Unknown
So there's been plenty of, sessions going out on there and clips of, of young kids doing what we do in
coaching and hopefully trying to improve. And we're not sort of going to be, an academy that is going
to have teams we want to get players from teams to make them better, but then go back to their
teams and give them a better chance of being successful.
00:39:30:21 - 00:39:56:18
Unknown
So we're part of this sort of, modern day football where you try and improve kids because that's all
I've done. Another wanted to do from coaching players predominantly myself, first team players, but
now you're going to be out my comfort zone a little bit more, and maybe coaching the odd sort of
under 8 to 9, ten, 11, 12, 13 over the next few months or years, however long we, we last with it, it'll
be a different experience, no doubt.
00:39:56:23 - 00:40:10:18
Unknown
Thank you very much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. Unlocking
sports science to push the limits of human potential. This is the Science to Sport podcast.
00:40:10:21 - 00:40:32:26
Unknown
Many thanks to Simon Grayson for joining me on this week's edition of the Science of Sport podcast,
and I hope you found his lessons, his life experience from working in football as a player and a
coach. Interesting and educational. And if you want to find out more around the subjects we've
discussed in this episode, you can do so by visiting our website dot science for sport.com.
00:40:32:29 - 00:40:57:05
Unknown
And if you've enjoyed this particular episode, I urge you to share it with a coach, a colleague, an
athlete, or a friend. Remember, the more downloads we get there is, it becomes to attract big name
athletes or experts leaders in their field such as Simon Grayson, onto future episodes. Well, that's
just about all for this edition. Thanks once again for listening, and I look forward to the next time you
can join me on the science for sport podcast.
00:40:57:08 - 00:41:15:16
Unknown
Subscribe to the science for sport podcast now wherever you listen to your podcasts. For more
insights, resources and to join the Academy, visit Science to sports.com and connect with us on
social media by searching for Add Science for sport. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.