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ANNOUNCER You're listening to the Ruby on Rails podcast. DAVID HILL Happy Wednesday and welcome to the show. I'm your host, David Hill, and joining me today are Eduardo and Camila Sousa. Welcome to the podcast. CAMILA SOUZA Thank you for having us. DAVID HILL So I don't remember when I first... Met both of you. I recognize both of you, but since we were just talking before the call about how I think we met through the Portuguese crowd of developers, of the Brazilian developers that come to Rails World and RailsConf and everything. I just remember seeing you guys at Rails World and recognizing you, but I couldn't even place where we first met anymore. CAMILA SOUZA I think we first met, we were introduced or we didn't talk. It was RailsConf in Philadelphia. DAVID HILL The last one, which I was definitely there at. CAMILA SOUZA Yeah. And then I think we were actually introduced on this one, the Rails world. Yeah. A month ago. DAVID HILL We definitely like had more of a formal introduction at Rails world because of part of the reason I invited you guys on the podcast was you have one of your kind of business ventures is that you've kind of rebuilt Pivotal Tracker as Pivotal Tasker, I think you called it. Correct. And that. Was super fascinating to me because I was super sad when Pivotal Tracker went away. I was just like, oh, wait, somebody is trying to bring it back. CAMILA SOUZA So were we. I was very sad. It's all I knew. And they just shut it down. I'm like, why? Yeah. Leave it free for everybody then. DAVID HILL That's how I felt too. So let's talk about that for a minute. What was that process like to decide to try and rebuild a defunct project management platform? EDUARDO SOUZA Well, we tried everything that's out there. I worked for Apple. We tried different software. We worked for different companies. And we tried every other software. And they're not specific for developers. They kind of try to, we do everything kind of approach. And of course, it gets complicated. And we have to set up and things. And it doesn't work quite the way we want it. We're like, it's super simple. Like, here, this is the task I have to do. It's done. It's coming up. It's super simple. And we miss that. CAMILA SOUZA I got fed up with it. I was like, I'm just going to rebuild this thing. Even if it's just for us, it's going to be my project. I'm going to do it and just redo this the way I want it to be and inspired in Pivotor Tracker. EDUARDO SOUZA But we did add some features that, of course, they didn't have it back then. We can connect with your agents. And again, from the terminal directly, just, hey, go ahead and bring Storm with your agent and come up with a plan and go ahead and create the stories for me. create an epic and then creates it for you. And then I'll go ahead and start the stories. And that's actually very productive. So yeah, we love it. DAVID HILL Was this kind of like a soft launch for Pivotal Tasker at Rails World or? CAMILA SOUZA Yes, we purposely went with our t -shirts to see if people were going to recognize. And a lot of people did. And we showed it to some people and some people are using it to see how it goes. So we have a bigger pool of people testing it. So, yeah, it was a soft launch. And then a lot of people were like really interested. We actually had ex -Bivro Tracker employees. Yes. That approached us. Nice. Funny. DAVID HILL That's funny. What was it like rebuilding that product? What did you use to rebuild something that you don't even have access to anymore? Because it's not even there. CAMILA SOUZA Some had to be from memory. Yeah. Right. And we use Ruby on Rails, of course. What else are you going to use? DAVID HILL Right. CAMILA SOUZA But we added some turbo stimulus so we can have those changes in the panels on the boards automatically. And it was fun, but we actually had to. For the UI, research and see if we could find things that we can look at it again so we can reimagine it. DAVID HILL So probably a lot of like the Wayback Machine or something like that? Yes. Yes. For sure. There is another one that it copied exactly the same, CAMILA SOUZA is another one that it copied exactly the same, but it's not a working product. So I logged in there and I looked at it. At least I could see the UI the way it was used to be. We created a classic UI, which is very similar to the old tracker. And then there's a modern one as well. DAVID HILL Okay. What are some of the big differences between the classic UI and your new modern UI? CAMILA SOUZA Well, it's just the way it looks and feels. You don't have that. I guess PivotTracker, it still had those 90s look of buttons and rolls and boards. We just made it a little bit more. DAVID HILL rolls and CAMILA SOUZA Rounded shape, not as squared. Okay. Just the buttons and components more modern to what we are using today. Gotcha. DAVID HILL I guess Tailwind wasn't really around yet either back when Pivotal Tracker was around. So yeah, we've got a lot more tools and utilities now for making that UI a little bit sharper and cleaner and more polished. For sure. Correct. EDUARDO SOUZA Yes, 100%. So yeah, that's what we did. DAVID HILL Were you rebuilding like the code for this application, like all from hand? Were you using AI to generate it? What was that like? EDUARDO SOUZA We started by hand first. And then because we're still dabbling with AI, right? Because again, we did this maybe a year ago. We started the whole process. CAMILA SOUZA Less than a year. EDUARDO SOUZA Yeah. So we're using AI, but not like fully on. kind of dabbling with it so you still like creating your rails new creating picking the gems that you want and things like that setting up the environments and built it for us like we've been using for a while ourselves for our projects but then we like let's see there'll be a good thing to try with ai to see how fast we'll move with this and it's been very fast we can develop and implement things super fast Things that we normally don't like, didn't like to do like all the JavaScript stuff or the front end things. We can delegate to somebody else. That's kind of like, that's good. But I'm still reviewing the code. We're still reviewing. I mean, I, you know, review the code and stuff. I'm still doing that. I'm old school. I heard some people in the Rails conference saying like, yeah, we don't even check anymore. I'm like, no. DAVID HILL I cringed inside every single time someone said that. Like, you don't look at all? EDUARDO SOUZA Yeah, people are not looking at it at all. And I'm like, yeah, we don't do that. We're still looking at infrastructure, setting it up, how we wanted to handle it with databases and all that kind of stuff. CAMILA SOUZA AI was great for, get this UI here. This is the old Pivotal Tracker. Let's bring it to this century. It spit out really good designs and things. So we have a light mode, a dark mode. Those things, AI was... super awesome to do because it just did it fast. DAVID HILL Yeah. I've been playing with AI for some similar kind of little side projects. And yeah, I had a similar experience where it would just churn out that HTML so fast for me. And like, oh, look, it just came with dark mode. Okay, great. EDUARDO SOUZA Yes. Now that is definitely for sure. For us, dual developer team to move faster. It's fantastic. If you know what you're doing, if you know, you know, put your parameters and things like that and your guardrails, he produces a really, really good code, a really good product. And it took us a while for us to get to how we want it. But right now, you know, we ask him to do stuff and does exactly how we would do it. And that is, that's kind of shocking to see, but it's cool too. DAVID HILL kind of shocking DAVID HILL That's pretty awesome. Yeah. So how long did it take you to go from like Rails new to having, pivotal tasks are like up and usable and ready for you to start doing stuff with it? CAMILA SOUZA Probably less than a month, just for us, not something to show it to customers. DAVID HILL Not as a product yet, but like it was usable for you inside of a month. Yeah. Right. Yes. From there, how long did it take to get to a point where you were like, maybe we could offer this to other people? EDUARDO SOUZA Again, we did it because we're doing that along with doing things for our clients, right? So this is like a side project for this internal tool kind of deal. And so we're still having our clients going on. And so it's like, well, let's start using it. So we used it for like four months ourselves, just out things and make sure it was working, make sure the agents things were connecting correctly. And right before RailsConf, when the Rails world was starting, we're like, well, maybe we should launch it there. Let's see what happens. And so that's when we kind of pivoted to like, let's add the... I'd be able to pay and things like that. Because again, it was an internal tool at that point, but not long. Like once we decided, okay, let's do it. Maybe like in a couple of weeks, we're able to get it out. Wow. It is fast. CAMILA SOUZA We kept adding things along the way, but I think if you don't count the between where we weren't not doing anything, it would be two to three months. EDUARDO SOUZA kept adding CAMILA SOUZA between where we weren't not doing anything, it would be two to three months. EDUARDO SOUZA That's not bad at all. Not bad at all. We have another product that we launched. We're a consulting company, but we're also trying to move into like a build on products kind of. That's the move we're doing. And we have a sale, hire a contact, you know, made a deal with a sales company, a local sales company that that's all they do. They call and they, you know, try to sell your product for you. And I came here and was like, hey, let me watch your process. And so I can see maybe I can help you guys with some inefficiencies and things like that. They were using like a power dialer to be able to dial multiple numbers at the same time and things like that. And they're using like five different tools and like five different CRMs. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is insane. And I'm like, let's see, let me take a stab at it. And from Rails new to actually they are using a software right now. We're here in their offices today. Two weeks. They have a full CRM, full sales system. where they can do like all the workflows for the calling for your leads and things like that to being able to yes everything all that and they're using from you know it was a form of prototype we have like one agent trying yeah we'll find some issues but they've been live testing this week yeah oh wow this week yeah that's pretty cool CAMILA SOUZA been live testing this week yeah EDUARDO SOUZA this week yeah oh wow this week yeah that's pretty cool And they're blown away because no other software does like what we're doing. Like they can call it out. But when people call in that number, it doesn't ring. Right. We're like, well, that's dumb. Let's make it ring. Let's make it ring like a regular phone. Like a phone, yeah. DAVID HILL phone. Like a phone, yeah. Yeah. EDUARDO SOUZA So it rings back, shows up who is calling, and they click open the lead. And so they know the information, talk to the clients. On the browser. On the browser. Everything gets recorded all in Rails. Everything gets recorded and they can play back. They have transcripts. And then once it's done, we use a little AI to kind of summarize it, the transcript and give you actions to like, okay, they want an appointment on this day. There's the right number for them. There's the right email. And they just click add, add, add, continue goes to the next call. DAVID HILL Wow. Yeah. It's pretty cool. It's pretty wild. That sounds really cool, actually. I don't know that I would ever want to work in an environment where I need that tool, but it just sounds like it's doing some really cool things for them to help make their job flow easier. Yes. And some of those tools are really expensive. EDUARDO SOUZA are really expensive. DAVID HILL Oh, yeah. EDUARDO SOUZA And not that great either. DAVID HILL Yeah, some of them. That's the best kind of customer lock -in. It's not a great tool, but there's nothing to compete with it. So they're going to keep paying you. EDUARDO SOUZA Yes, exactly. So, yeah, it's interesting to see. DAVID HILL exactly. DAVID HILL I guess that's a newer one than what we were talking about back at Rails World, because at Rails World, you mentioned Pivotal Tasker and you also mentioned something else that you were working on with like your local chamber of commerce. Right. You talk a little bit about that one. CAMILA SOUZA So Chamber Builder is a software, all in one software to manage a chamber. So it includes the membership part, email sending. Website builder, events, text messaging, all in one. So the chamber keeps everything in one place because right now what's out there, it's either very, very expensive or they have to segment it with different software. So they have the website in one place, membership in another place, email in another place. So it's everything is separate. Right. And that is. The product that this company is selling, the company that we built the dialer for, they're selling it for us. They're calling the chambers, booking demos for us. And then we demo the product. Then we have to decide if it's a good fit for them or not. But the feedback we're getting, even the salespeople here, they were like, we've never seen this before. It's never a no. It's just like maybe or a yes. They want to see the product. We actually we're going to close one of the customers next week. He's been with the competitor for 16 years. Wow. And he's like he looked at it. He's like, I want that because the competitors are the big guy and the market is everybody. And that's not me saying that their customers are saying it's just outdated and customer service sucks. DAVID HILL Right. CAMILA SOUZA They're stuck in the 90s. And then the second one is just he doesn't have anything. Everything's third party that he put together in one shell. So we built everything to make it easy for them. They tend to be an older crowd. They're using the software. It needs to be easy for them. It needs to be user friendly so they can do everything they need to do. And they don't have actually sometimes they're small and they can't pay professionals to do it for them. They have to do it themselves. So that's the one right now is we're booking demos and trying to close subscriptions. They're yearly or most of them are yearly subscriptions. EDUARDO SOUZA And we build a lot of tools around that to be able to, because we offer free onboarding. So like we move your data for free because all the other competitors charge, like it starts at $1 ,800 to set up fee. DAVID HILL Just to get them and set up to use it. EDUARDO SOUZA Yeah. Oh my gosh. So essentially like we went, we had the competitors. And what they're doing is like, let's build an importer for every single one of them. And that's the power of AI, like that we can actually go in and like build every single one of them for us. And we start testing it. And then this past week, DAVID HILL Oh my gosh. EDUARDO SOUZA past week, she was like, well, it would be nice if they could see the actual website, like rematch. Some of those websites are really bad, DAVID HILL like really bad. EDUARDO SOUZA bad. And like, it would be nice if we could have a tool like we can. given the existing site, reimagine based on our system to make our data move simpler. And then at least they can see it. Oh, I can show that in a demo. So we built that. And so now our demos, we actually show them the new website with some of their data already. Whatever's public that we can pull it. We pull their data, like the directory and things like that. It's fun. It's awesome. DAVID HILL I'm just laughing in my head, imagining it is like, here's what your website could be. And it was like, yeah, existing logo and real data. It's just been completely modernized and redone. It's kind of like, oh yeah. And this is what our system does for you. Yeah. CAMILA SOUZA Yeah. That's literally one of the things I say. Okay. I took the liberty of re -imagining your website for you. Here what it could look like. And I show it to them. Awesome. DAVID HILL Yeah. Some of them are like, CAMILA SOUZA of them are like, I'm blown away. ADAM FROM JUDOSCALE Oh, I love that. That's fantastic. Hey, Rubyists, this is Adam from JudoScale, the autoscaler you can trust. Trust us because we're Ruby developers just like you. No sales or marketing department, just devs. If you want autoscaling you can trust, sign up for free at judoscale .com. DAVID HILL And so I think you kind of mentioned or alluded to this, that you're using AI a lot to kind of work through those problems. building those features and building that code? CAMILA SOUZA Correct. So we can 10x ourselves. We give it the parameters. We want to use Ruby and Rails. It's vanilla JavaScript stimulus. We're going to use turbos for certain things. And this is what we want to use. This is how I want the CSS or the UI set up. Don't deviate from that, which sometimes you have to yell at the agents because. It deviates from it. DAVID HILL Sometimes they deviate. Yeah. CAMILA SOUZA It's getting better, actually. At least it's staying within the perimeter sometimes. It kept adding too many comments. It's like, I don't want comments. Don't put any comments. EDUARDO SOUZA I have an instruction, like if you had to write a comment, look at the code that you just generated and rethink it. It makes a human read the best possible. So it reads like English. And so it gets better, but sometimes it does put comments on. CAMILA SOUZA but it does 10x ourselves yeah yeah but of course you have to check the work yeah sometimes we'll do things like no that's not the way it should be done yeah it works but that's not the way this is wrong try again yeah work on my browser doesn't work right actually has to be a sound system so people can put their credit card if the payment information you know the data is there so there's no you know things like that so we need to make sure that's actually a real usable product right EDUARDO SOUZA is wrong try again yeah work on my browser doesn't work right actually has to be a sound system so people can put their credit card if the payment information you know the data is there so there's no you know things like that so we need to make sure that's actually a real usable product right But we're getting really good at moving really fast with AI. Like before, because we can, we're a consulting company. So before, we still could do this at that pace. We just would cost us a lot more, right? We'd have to hire like four or five developers to help us move that fast. Right, yeah. Right now, we don't. It's just two of us. But we still want to build code that we can maintain ourselves without AI. CAMILA SOUZA we still want to build code that we can maintain ourselves without AI. DAVID HILL Yeah, that's really the sweet spot where like... If all of the subsidizing of the AI tool chain goes away, which is something that I'm kind of like in fear of every day, like you are now on the hook for still maintaining that code. Exactly. CAMILA SOUZA Exactly. Exactly. So it makes it faster. For example, two years ago, we built for the county a business directory. It's a business direct events hub and offers small businesses some certain tools inside if they subscribe. It took me, that was one thing. I was like, I want to do something from scratch without his help. I was like, I want to do it. And I want to see how far I can go without any help. So I built it and it took me nine months because we were, of course, we're doing other things on the side. This was a side project. We had clients and stuff. And I built a Hotwire native app for both iOS and Android. So it took a little longer. Today, that process would be a lot faster. EDUARDO SOUZA Yeah. CAMILA SOUZA But it's something that if we don't have AI, we can still manage it. So we decided that we wanted to apply the same principle to the incoming or future projects. Let's build stuff that if anything happens, we can still maintain it. EDUARDO SOUZA Yeah, like use the tool, don't depend on the tool, right? So use AI to make you move faster. But if AI tomorrow becomes something that you can't afford anymore because no longer subsidized, then can you continue building this? Can you maintain this code base? We're going to be pulling your hairs because now you have paid clients and you can't maintain it. So we're keeping it as simple as possible. CAMILA SOUZA There is stuff right now that I know I have to go back to it and I need the agent to fix it, especially things related to the UI and CSS that in the beginning was not done correctly. I want to go back to it and then make it the way I like it. So if I have to maintain this, usually I'm the one that maintains the UI because this one doesn't like the front end. It's on my list to go back to it. rewrite it and fix it to make it the way I want it in case I have to do this by hand. DAVID HILL There's a joke in there about if you don't like to work on the front end, marry someone who will. Sure. EDUARDO SOUZA Sure. I build the front end side of it. And then she goes in with like, she has a patience to go and do the fine touches. And it looks, you know, she still do all the back end stuff too, but she has the touch of like, I mean, no, this doesn't look right. Let's move this way here. Like five pixels this side. CAMILA SOUZA I also make it less technical. DAVID HILL That's the beauty of having a partner who's coming from a non -technical background is like it's a very different line of thought that you're coming at it from. CAMILA SOUZA it from. I was in business for a long time. I had a business administration degree. I worked in the family business for a long time. And then I transitioned to being undevelopable five years ago. But my mind sometimes look at it and like this word or this UI does not make sense to me as a user, not as a developer. For the developer, I know I can click here and do that. But for a regular user, they're not going to understand this. So I kind of translate him sometimes. DAVID HILL Right. Something that you said a little while ago that I kind of want to circle back to when we were talking about the chamber builder and you're talking about how they tend to be an older crowd of people because they're people who own businesses or are working in the chamber of commerce. I just thought that was a really interesting point I wanted to highlight of how attentive you are clearly having to be about who your end users are and what their needs are in order to address those needs through the tools you're building and through the code that you're building with AI. When I was a younger developer, I was so dumb and I was just like, I just want to do code and the code is all that matters that the code is my job. And like over time is like, well, wait. I actually need to understand a person's problem so I can solve the problem. And the code is just the tool to do that along the way. Is there anything that you'd like to share or mention in kind of that topic? Well, CAMILA SOUZA this is one thing. Eduardo has been a developer for almost 20 years, but he always said that. And after I became a developer, I guess it resonates even more is it's not. only about building code it's about building code other people can use so this sometimes simple less is better and simple is better so if your user and that is the issue with the market in the chamber builder industry is the software out there is complicated it does a lot of things it's okay great but some people are afraid to move because It took them so long for their team to learn how to use it that are afraid to move and get to something that's going to be complicated. So one of our main models is it needs to be simple to use. It needs to be user friendly. If they have to click too many places to get there, then we need to rethink it and make it even simpler. So sometimes we build it, we think it's simple, and then we see a user using it. Why did you do it that way? Why did you go to that route? Makes no sense. And then we try to reroute it or make it even simpler for them. So it's right in their face. So it's not only about building code. You have to think about the end user. And end users do some weird things when they're clicking. DAVID HILL So many times they do something weird. And they're like, why did you go over there? That was completely unnecessary. But they do it. EDUARDO SOUZA it. Yes. Yeah. For example, for the chamber stuff, we're like, we need to meet what they are. Like, so we need to figure it out who the demographic is, who the decision makers are. They're a little older. So we need to make it super simple. Right now we have the help center, but they, most of them figured it out themselves. And they're like 60s plus on age group. So they were able to log in, figure things out and send the emails and text message through the system. And it's awesome to see like, so before we actually, so we built this for our local chamber. And we'll let them use for a while so they don't get feedback. And they were able to figure it out. And like, if they can't figure it out, anybody will. And that's the idea. They're awesome. So it's awesome. So like same thing with, it's one thing building the product. Now, putting the product to market, it's not as simple, right? You can build the best tool, but if nobody knows you exist, that is complicated. So that's why we went with like, when this product specifically changed, we spent money on ads and all the Google ads. fit matter and everything and we got zero results like oh wow not once and we're like wait which we went linkedin nothing and like okay what's going on why nobody's clicking this like this no we did a research and there is a demand on this product and we realized well actually they have office so we need to call them and that's why we're like well we need to have somebody that's a different approach interesting yeah because i guess CAMILA SOUZA that's a different approach interesting DAVID HILL yeah because i guess The way ads are targeted these days might just be missing that demographic of people that are the people that you need to be hitting. CAMILA SOUZA Yes, exactly. DAVID HILL exactly. Interesting. Is there anything else that you guys would like to bring up about your Rails work or your consultancy before we wrap up? CAMILA SOUZA You tell him about Shireito, which is for the Kamau deployments. Yeah, so that's interesting. EDUARDO SOUZA Yeah, so that's interesting. Again, it's too internal to... But he showed it to some people at Rails World and they were like... CAMILA SOUZA he showed it to some people at Rails World and they were like... you should sell this. EDUARDO SOUZA Yeah. So for a long time, we used Heroku because we liked the simplicity, you know, with being a small team. It was so easy. Yeah. Yeah. Because in my team, I had to deal with the DevOps and things like that. So, and I'm like, okay, it came out was awesome, but, DAVID HILL a small team. It was so easy. EDUARDO SOUZA and it works. But then I had to, I have to download the code base. But like, it just makes a change. I have to download the code, deploy it from a local machine. My machine's locked at a time. And I'm like, I really like how Heroku, like I can just go and Heroku deploy. And I can go do something else. Or, you know, she can deploy on the go. And let's try to recreate that. And that's what I did. And so I started working on this. Again, there's a lot of small issues. But today, every single one of our products, we're using deploy. We're deploying this tool called Shireito, which is essentially like a control tile in Japanese. I'm a little obsessed with Japanese lately. Japan lately. So I like all the internal products that are Japanese named. So it is growing, of course, it's we're adding an ability to check the servers, what status of the servers, see the containers inside the servers and deploy multiple projects inside the same server and see the statistics and having a status page for every one of the projects. So we're trying to also save some costs, obviously, and figure things out. But it just makes our lives a lot easier. And again, one of those tools that we built it for us. We could commercialize because I showed some people, they're like, I'll pay for this. This is really cool. I'm like, how do I sell this now? Because, you know, and then I'm like, how do we actually sell this? DAVID HILL Interesting. I was wondering if it was a Japanese name, because like we talked before about I speak Portuguese and I lived in Brazil for a little while. I also lived in Japan as a child because my father was in the Air Force. And so we were on a U .S. Air Force base. I have some visual memories of living in Japan as a kid and a couple of the big touristy places that my parents took us. And so I also am like, oh, yeah, that sounds like a Japanese word. EDUARDO SOUZA Yes, yes. Yeah, like the CRM that we built, the dialer that we built for them here, for the 511 company there, it's called Kyakuma, which is essentially like an entryway of our... housing Japanese, like a guest room. So it's kind of, that's the idea. And it's easy to find domains that are available. The cost doesn't cost like a thousand dollars to buy this. The Japanese names. CAMILA SOUZA Japanese names. EDUARDO SOUZA Japanese names are easier to find. So yeah, I like that. I've been needing some domain names. DAVID HILL domain names. So suddenly I'm, I think you just helped me figure out how I'm going to find some good domain names now. EDUARDO SOUZA going to find some good domain names now. Yeah, for sure. Portuguese too. Like we have one that we built another internal tool for gathering data for like medical industry or public information that's there. And again, another internal tool I call a cadastro because it's a Portuguese word. It's funny. It's funny. It's a cool thing that we can build products that always want it, but for us internally that maybe nobody will see that other than us. And if you don't like it, you can just throw it away or don't use it. Or it's just a tool that you guys use because it helps you. CAMILA SOUZA funny. CAMILA SOUZA Exactly. But I think on RailsConf, I think... The developer role is changing. I think one of the things I do agree with is that we're going to become makers of things. CAMILA SOUZA Problem solvers for certain companies. It's just going to change. I think it's continuing to change, but we're going to become makers of products as well. At least that's what's happening to us. Right. So we're building products and it's not only just one. And we're just going to see what goes. EDUARDO SOUZA You have to get creative because, again, we're consultants and everybody now is a developer. Some of our clients that would give us projects, they're like, well, we're going to do this in -house with Claude. It's like, cool. That's the nature of what's happening. But then we're like, let's be creative. Let's go help people that couldn't help before because we didn't know that or they couldn't afford or something like that. That's the same thing with the sales company we're working with. What can we do? Like, is that inefficiencies? And that become our test case. So we can show other companies here, here's what we can do. We can go into companies, spend a week or two there, figure out how we can make tools and use existing stuff to improve the workflow, right? And build custom tools for you and, you know, whatever we dreamed of. And there's a lot of figuring out right now, which is interesting time, but also scary times. DAVID HILL I can't think of a better way to describe the times we're living in other than interesting and scary. I think that's about it for the questions that I have at the moment. Is there anything that you'd like to mention as we get ready to close out? CAMILA SOUZA Well, if you're a developer and you need a project management tool, go to pivotaltasker .com and sign up. EDUARDO SOUZA sign up. And it's for a company who needs a team of developers to help you build whatever you need to do. CAMILA SOUZA sign up. EDUARDO SOUZA Talk to us too. It's called Unlock Labs. Unlock is misspelled. CAMILA SOUZA is misspelled. EDUARDO SOUZA Misspelled with a K. Labs .com. So shameless plugs. CAMILA SOUZA Misspelled with DAVID HILL We like shameless plugs. I'll have those in the show notes. Awesome. Well, Eduardo and Camila, thank you so much for joining me today. EDUARDO SOUZA Thank you. Thank you for having us. DAVID HILL This has been the Ruby on Rails podcast. It was a pleasure talking with Eduardo and Camila. If you're in the market for a new project management tool, check out Pivotal Tasker. Thanks to Mike, our wonderful editor over at Redrum Creative for making us sound like professionals. I'd also like to thank Ruby Native by Joe Mazzalotti and Judo Scale for sponsoring this episode. And finally, thank you for listening. ADAM FROM JUDOSCALE This has been the Ruby on Rails podcast. Special thanks to Mike, DAVID HILL Mike, our wonderful editor at Redrum Creative for making us sound like professionals. Thanks for listening.